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Veteran Advisor

Re: Innocent til proven guilty

Was Frank convicted of a felony or anything else?  The guy he hired as an aide was the one running that outfit.  What happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?

Honored Advisor

Re: Innocent til proven guilty

That`s the point I am making, this "Teabagger" fellow has way less evidence against him than either Clinton or Frank, in Clinton`s case he actually perjured himself because he was guilty.  But hey Clinton kept a "woman`s right to choose" right?? 

Honored Advisor

Re: Innocent til proven guilty

That`s right 3020, if I was a wealthy CEO who makes 344% more than overpaid teachers the last thing I would want is a bunch of Rand Paul supporting Tea Partiers in power.  Gimme a Mit Romney any day, hell I`d rather keep Obama in.

Advisor

Re: Bruce

Just saw this  30.

You ask "Just what is it the teabaggers have done, or proposed, that you are dead set against??"

Little if anyting of what might possiblyhave been the original intent of any grass roots founders, if indeed there were any. None have been ideintified that I've seen. It became a haven...a port as it would be...for all sorts of people with cultural complaints....making it not much differnet than other extremist movements that infect us....narrowly focused and unbending environmental extremists out to radically change the way we live with no concern for how that may upset any part of the existing order of things, radical foriegn policy advocates who see us as an entitled imperial power. Only in the case of the tp it has the backing of the most  poweful exonmic interests in the world, as just one tool to establish a system of government-business realtionship that can be described as nothing other than later day fascism.  Most "on the ground" members don't have any clue that is what they are doing, what they are enabling, no more than many single issue focused folks on the left realize that what they propose is statist socialism. They think that they are simply simple folks out to make the world a better place.

We need much more efficient and less intrusive gofvernment. Less subsidization for subsidization out of habit's sake.  More accountability and transparency.  Those things I've heard bits and pieces of and I like them. Surely less military entanglements off of our shores (Ron Paul is "the bomb" on this issue, but he is also the anethma of those who provide the serious financial and intitutional support for the loosely organized "Tea Party"). 

This may sound weird to you, but the thing that the bagger movement is accomplishing more than anything else is the making of the very necessary and useful Republican Party into what can be described in much the same terms as the worst things about the Democratic Party. That group of Republican Senators who have served to temper off the rails liberalism have been so infected by the most extreme elements of the tp movement that it puts our Congress into a disfunctional crisis. You can see the pain in their faces as they are forced to take on this new demanor.....knowing full well that the alliance between the tea party activists and the souless economic powers that have taken over their institution. Sen. Coburn is proposing some very well thought out ideas for fixing the insurance reform bill, maybe even starting over and concentrating on controlling costs first, before writing abstract rules. I'd expect that scores of Democratic members of Congress would be more than willing to work with him on that. But the moguls of medicine, pharma and insurance don't want that. They know that they can figure out a way to make the recent"Obamacare" legislation work for them by playing along, just as spin off chartered investment banks know that they can make any rule or directive work for them, as they proved so well after things were supposedly "tightened up" after S & L and Enron and other scandals and crimes. And, in light of that, where is the Tea Party on financial reform? Not a peep. Not a word about the massive scandal of mortgage fraud. The Tea Party default position seems to be that our financial crisis was caused soley by malicious, primarily minority home buyers who tricked righteous and honest bankers into lending them too much money. That may not be any official position on that, but no one has heard the first tea bagger say otherwise.

 

One 6th of the country is out of work. Millions have been foreclosed upon or face serious underwater home mortgage conditions....where is the movement on that? That situation won't go away, won't improve one iota even if we were to see changes in all of those periphrial social and cultural matters that seem to have become the keystones of tea party politics. Jobs aren't going to be created by outlawing same sex marriage across the land. Mortgages aren't going to get paid upon the demolition of Planned  Parenthood. In light of energy prices and what is going to become a rabid discussion on the future of nucluear energy in this land, what is the grass roots (not the Koch or BP) Tea Party stand on that?

Best as I can see, what started out as a relatively good idea to make governement more efficient and accountable has turned into a trigger mecahnism for the oligarchy that has unfortunately been our permanent government for 30 some years now. And those people, those institutions have absolutely no concern for, no interest in or obligation to the generally good hard working every day Americans who dreamed up this idea. Don't feel bad about that...it's standard operating procedure. They feel (and act)the same way about ANY populist movement. Except in this one, they found a relatively organized set of dupes that they could play to the finest of tunes. Started with Nixon's "southern strategy (no coincidence that then Rep. Armey headed that effort up also...it gave them an experienced professional to write and play out the script this time) and was further nurtured by GOP pandering to social and cultural conservatives in a "wink, wink..nod, nod" fashion since then. And that wound up being who showed up for the rallies, who took the podium...they'd been grooming for it for years.

 

Lost in all of that is the fact that there isn't a whole lot of space between the criticisms, views and ideas of the genuine progressives in this country and what the Tea Party would by nature be on it's face. Getting a nation to work at making things work...lean and mean and in some degree of egalitarian and fair fashion. But in so long that this new Concord movement of yours is bought and paid for and sold out to and, now, LED by those who would work against the best economic and civic interests of little people everywhere, it's essentially become useless. 

Senior Contributor

Re: Bruce

Bravo! bruce! That was profound, and educational. I hope this in print in other places, as unfortunately the people here, if they did read it wouldn't understand it anyway.

Senior Contributor

Re: Bruce

After reading this, I came to the conclusion that you weren't just describing the tea party.  You were in essence describing the American public in general.  It also appears as though you're describing both the President and Congress as well.  In February, we ran a deficit of over 200 billion.  Neither side can come up with cuts that will even dent the February deficit much less the annual deficit.  In terms of jobs, nobody has an answer either.  We set another trade deficit record in Feb.  While high oil prices were the excuse, the reality is that over half of the deficit was with China that doesn't export oil or fuel to the U.S.  As long as we have no manufacturing base, we will have no jobs and high trade deficits.  Then we come to energy.  I think we're in full agreement with regards to the energy crisis looming.  Over the past decade, the only answer the gov't has come up with is ethanol.  It really matters very little whether we make ethanol from corn or from biomass because neither will ever make much of a dent in our energy crisis.  Even the greenies are saying that wind and solar can't and won't fill much of the void either because of the enormous land base it takes to produce enough electricity to make much of a dent.  Electric cars might provide some relief, but they won't unless we drastically change how we produce electricity.  Million upon millions of electric cars would overwhelm our current power grid.  Unfortunately, our nuclear energy policy probably just got set back decades.

 

The American public is out of touch with what needs to be done.  Political figures have an idea what needs to be done, but they won't do it for fear they will lose their job.  People talk a good game about becoming lean and mean until the cuts occur to something that has a direct affect on them.  The only good that can come of things is if the price of energy gets so high that it becomes impossible to ship things across the World into the U.S.  Until we get some sort of manufacturing base back into the U.S. we won't have jobs.  Without jobs, we'll continue to see high forclosure rates.  You are right.  Banning same sex marriage solves none of our economic problems.  Banning guns also solves none of our economic problems.  Cap and Trade also solves none of our economic problems.  When the smoke clears, I have a feeling we'll all find out that national healthcare will also not solve any of our economic problems.  The soaring national deficit as well as the energy crisis needs addressed, but nobody seems to have desire to do either one.  The ponzi scheme of buying overseas goods and selling them to one another is not working.  The ponzi scheme of borrowing and spending our way out of debt is not working.  Bernanke's U.S. dollar collision course is causing higher food and fuel prices which in turn either has or will cause higher foreclosure rates and unemployment.         

Senior Contributor

Re: Bruce

The Tea Party members that got elected have been trying to cut back on spending as they promised but as Bruce says they have done little in regards to financial reform.  The T.P. was against bailing out Wall street banks so one would think they would be in favor of trying to help make sure this type of disaster does not happen again.

 

 

As far as Senator Coburn proposes I think Dems made a big mistake when addressing health care reform by not first concentrating on controlling cost as that is and will be are biggest problem in this country with health care.  Once that is done you can start addressing the uninsured.  We already have numerous programs to help insure the poor and if we can get a handle on the high costs we may find we would have a lot more people covered without requiring the government to step in and cover them. 

Senior Advisor

Re: Bruce

Well Bruce thanks for your thoughts. I disagree with most of what you say and pray you are wrong. Your post is to long to go through point by point so I won't even try. There are no identifiable leaders because it is a grass roots movement sick of imperialism here and don't really care what the rest of the world is doing or does. They are against most of the stuff you posted, dead set against TARP and trying to at least refund what is still left. As you stated what started out as a good idea....yes it still is, but you were against it from the get go...and I see you still are, from what I can tell simply because they are conservative. You like their ideas, just can't stand the people who are in it.

Advisor

Re: Bruce

What i was against was the gathering up of those people under a well funded tent and pretening to be only about something else. Just more dishonest politcs from the supposedly moral right. The economic thing was a novice idea to them, but what the heck...if somebody was going to fund it then whatever it takes, I guess. And as I said above, there hasn't been a ppepout of baggerdom about teh most serious things we have to deal with on the economicscene. Only deficits...deficits that exploded under an administration that said that they "didn't matter". An administration that most of you bagger folks supported.

 

Yeah...you're pretty much right in your last statement. Some of the aabstract original ideas for sure. I'm well on record here as having strongly opposed the TARP implemented by the Bush administration. Favored letting the whole thing run out on it's own and building it back. As a time saving measure. Get it over with and make the world economy adjust to us as it's largest consumer if nothing else. Only thing is that I don't consider raging thumpers and subtle racists as conservatives. I see them more as dangerous radicals. No different that the radicals that threaten us externally. And the tea party is a haven for them. Mabe wasn't set out ot be by teh founders..nobody seems to know that for sure,,,but if so that's unfortunate, but then it's had the liveing hell co-opted out of it.