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Senior Contributor

Re: Darn, thought our socialist president and his minions could pay off the debt


@r3020 wrote:

We have been helping countries like Haiti for years. Time for the oil rich middle east or countries like Canada to pick up the slack.


That is interesting that a 'god fearing' person like you would let the poor people in Haiti suffer with no help.

Here is a list of donors of aid to Haiti.

The US gave $466,879,506 or about $1.50 per person

Canada gave $130,733,775 or about $4 per person

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_Haiti

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Senior Advisor

Re: Darn, thought our socialist president and his minions could pay off the debt

The US government gave nothing compared to private donations from US citizens.

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Veteran Advisor

Re: Darn, thought our socialist president and his minions could pay off the debt

Then what the h3ll are you complaining about?  You just said that the American govt gave nothing compared to what private citizens gave but you want to cut all aid to haiti and others.  

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Senior Contributor

Re: Darn, thought our socialist president and his minions could pay off the debt

This reminds me of a time back in the 80's. Overleveraged farmers were faced with a difficult decision. They could either default via chpt. 7 or 11 bankruptcy, and start out with a clean sheet after all their creditors took a significant haircut. Or, they could work their way out of it. Considering no one really has the stomach for a U.S. default, it appears that our only option is really option 2 of working our way out of it. Anyone that remembers this time period also remembers that for those that chose to work their way out of it took many years probably closer to a couple of decades. This is what I believe happens to the U.S. It will take a couple of decades of very slow growth to work our way out of this debacle.
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Senior Advisor

Re: Darn, thought our socialist president and his minions could pay off the debt

That's right Bart, the US government needs to end all foreign aid. Doesn't mean private charities have to end what they do.

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Veteran Advisor

Re: Darn, thought our socialist president and his minions could pay off the debt


@Canuck_2 wrote:

@gough whitlam wrote:

Reducing the size of government has not worked anywhere else. why would it work there.  You will find there are two main reasons for your problems.  1.  You have to stop spending money on your military prowess and 2 wars.  Those wars are costing 2 billion per week. Then remove all the military bases around the world  and that will save another 2 billion per week.  2. Instead of promoting how to avoid taxes, etc start paying them.  The likes of Buffett will never make a dent in the bill but as usual if all the average joe punters kick the tin and increase their payments by about 20 per cent, the bill will come down.  There is no other group in the US who have the capacity to pay that bill and that includes you and the others.

 

 

To waffle on around the perimeter of the problem will not solve anything.  Everyone in your country owes it to the country.  The costs of your military egos is your main problem and if you believe the freedom and liberty mandate you bellow about, paying for with increased taxes should not be a problem.  Think about it.  


Well said Gough.

Those who want to 'cut everything', equally I assume, should do a study of where the increases in spending occurred over the last few years and then cut according to those increases.

I do not have the figures but think they will show the military cost has risen considerably at the expense of many things that could be doing some good.

 

This military thing is kind of self supporting.

Build a big military and you have to do something with it like go to war.

When you go to war you create enemies so you need a g=bigger military to 'protect' yourself and so............... around it goes.



The United States should declare that we will not come to the aid of Canada or Australia in the event of an invasion by any other country.

 

You will then see the populous of both nations urinating down their respective legs.... Especially if China decides to follow "Lebensraum" program ..... That it needs some more "living space" to help their bottom line.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

 

No one seems to miss the Golden Goose until it is gone.

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Advisor

Re: Darn, thought our socialist president and his minions could pay off the debt

You make it sound as if the farmers had a choice. That any "overleveraged" farmer had the opportunity to chose between bankruptcy proceedings or just simply making more money somehow, even with the debt. (What???)

 

The biggest winners were those who got direct lender driven writedowns and buyouts. If you were with a small local bank you were pretty well screwed. If upon the trail to becoming over-leveraged you had been forced away from your traditional lender to the Farm Credit System you ultimately had a much, much better chance of getting written down or off.

 

And to top it off, if you went under and were forced to deed back or default land the IRS was there on the spot to tabulate the deeded back or foreclosure credited value to weigh against the original recorded purchase price and those lucky folks were often dead broke, with a big federal tax bill, to where it had to be proven to them your literal technical insolvency to keep them from walking in and garnishing wages, emptying checking accounts. ALL THE WHILE those farm credit system writedowns and writeoffs were NOT reported to the IRS and weren't considered as income or gains, for whatever reason.  I've always presumed it was because if it became an issue that generated discussion at agencies that it might have become too easy to understand public knowledge and there would have been buildings burned. FCS agents were very careful to keep dealings quiet and private.

 

Hell of a formula...purchase, inherit or marry 160 acres...splurge on 2000 more with borrowed money. Give back half of it and wind up with 1160 acres essentially free and clear with no income or cap. gains liablity.

 

I don't have a feel for how old you may be. or how long you may have been farming or in what era(s), but I'm quite convinced that your take on this is based on passed down cliched and crude assumptions and rehetoric depicting heroic and self sufficient entrepenuers and craftsmen who lifted themselves  out of the deepest of swamps and quicksand by their own bootstraps. 

 

As for an analogy for our Nation, if you look honelsty at the utter failure of the Bush administration, it's agencies and the 2008 Congress and then Obama Administration, it's agnecies and the 2009 Congress to force resolution...to guide the equities and securities sector to a marked to market equilibium it's deja vu "all over again". You conservatives may think it can't be all that much harm to have a couple of hundered or so billionaires runing around. Get out your calculator and do some cross ciphering as to the number of working farm operations there were in, say, 1983 or 4, and then take the number now and project it against the number of folks in that billionaires club as a percent of the total population and run it out for another 25 years.

 

That's where we are headed if whatever policy becomes isn't geared toward a more progressive end. Pure and simple. I'm with some of the recent doom and gloomers who say it might be too late. As nox said so well the other day, the little self styled plutoctrats are penciled in on the menu. The Koch boys aren't going to help Craig get his struggling hay business back on it's feet, no matter how far his nose is up their a$$es.

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Senior Contributor

Re: Darn, thought our socialist president and his minions could pay off the debt


@Milligan Hay - Iowa d:^) wrote:


The United States should declare that we will not come to the aid of Canada or Australia in the event of an invasion by any other country.

 

You will then see the populous of both nations urinating down their respective legs.... Especially if China decides to follow "Lebensraum" program ..... That it needs some more "living space" to help their bottom line.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum

 

No one seems to miss the Golden Goose until it is gone.



Well if history repeats itself the last country that invaded Canada was the US.

And it took you a long time and a little persuasion from the Japanese to get into the last war that Canada was in except for those foolish foreign invasions that we have gone to help you with.

If we all made 'peace' as willfully as some want to make war.......................IF.

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Veteran Advisor

Choices

the father of a high school sweetheart was a loan officer during the 80's and resigned when it was time to start foreclosing on those farmers that he had guided and loaned money to during the course of his career. She told me that he thought it over, and decided that this was something he had a choice about, and chose to not to do what he found distasteful. Sometimes we don't have choices, sometimes we have to do things that don't set well just to survive. He was in a position to retire and that was a choice he made.

 

I don't know about every farmer out there, but I was farming in 1980 already and I am an eyewitness to what transpired. a lot of farmers made bad choices, based on greed and faulty visions of where commodity prices would stay, partly based on government guarantees of $3 corn. Some made the choice not to over extend themselves and never had to take a bailout. Some sold out and paid their debts or downsized and went forward with a trimmer operation and a lesson learned. A lot of the big time operators of today made the choice to take a bailout and cheat everyone they could, with no morality then or now over what was the right thing to do.

 

Part of what you wrote I agree with, the part the Farm Credit system was very careful in how they went about their business. Maybe the ghost of Rudy Blythe (sic??), the Ruthton, MN banker that was shot dead by a disgruntled borrower visited and consoled them to not make a a lot waves or enemies. I asked one FCS official why the right of the lender to get a judgment against the farmers for the amounts of money not paid back was never exercised, and he told me that  it was an agency decision not to pursue recourse judgements. Just think of the millions that could have been recovered when land prices rebounded if these judgments had been pursued. Instead, it was a free lunch for the BTO's.

 

Went to a land auction a few nights ago. Saw the same BTO's and BTO wannabees that never payed their debts back in the 1980's all revved up and bidding again on several parcels of land. Some looked like they should have been in a hospital bed instead of at an auction but the greedy look was still on their faces. THings go in circles and I guess we are back to some high point in the cycle. And when it busts again , the same players or their heirs will expect another bailout, too.

 

 

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Senior Contributor

Re: Darn, thought our socialist president and his minions could pay off the debt

How did they not have a choice?  I have/had as one is no longer with us neighbors faced with this situation.  Two of them sold down assets to make it while one of them filed for bankruptcy.  All three had the choice of either selling down assets to get into a more manageable debt situation or simply filing bankruptcy.  The one who filed bankruptcy found a willing lender to go with him.  At his farm sale, he bought all of his equipment back for 25 cents on the dollar.  He alone put the local small town bank in somewhat of a pickle. 

 

The one who took the easy way out has expanded his operation to three times the size it was in the 80's when he ran into trouble.  One who gutted it out selling assets is now deceased, but he lived a very meager lifestyle for several years.  The other who gutted it through was in a little better situation as he had a lot of cows and hogs.  He simply sold all of his livestock.  However, it took him 25 years to get back to where he was which he really never did because he never got back into the hog business. 

 

Why didn't your analogy just use millionaires?  If you take the amount of millionaires in the early 80's and compare to today, it's within a percent or two of the amount of billionaires in the early 80's to today.  I have heard of an irrigated quarter of ground selling east of me for nearly a million dollars, and as I understand it was purchased by a local farmer.  It's not just the ultra rich numbers that have grown considerably from the early 80's to now.  Millionaires don't consider themselves rich, yet their numbers have expanded at about the same percentage as billionaires.  If I were to put my calculator to anything, it might just come to the same conclusion that the movie "Idiocracy" came to where a cup of coffee cost something like 150,000 bucks.  If millionaire and billionaire numbers are climbing at nearly the same pace, one could conclude that the number of hundred thousandaires, etc. is climbing at nearly the same pace as well. 

 

I'd be willing to bet there are more similarities between ag. operations lost from the early 80's to present and billionaire numbers from then to now than one realizes.  The number of operations lost in the hog and poultry operations in the last 30 years is astronomical.