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Veteran Advisor

Re: canada


@Red Steele wrote:

Funny and clever reply!

 

You have to remember that Canucks ancestors were Tories that were run out of America, so they are dyed in the wool subjects of the British crown. I don't imagine that they mind being sheep.


You are correct Red that some of my ancestors were "run out" of your country because they did not support a rebellion but remained loyal to their ruler.

Many would have stayed but were persecuted, houses and businesses damaged posessions taken etc. they were therefore forced to move in many cases. Others chose to remain loyal and so moved where their ruler of choice still ruled.

I doubt any were "sheep" the 'sheep' were the ones who stayed put and allowed the rebels to govern them rather than strike off into what was a that time mostly wilderness to start life all over with little but ambition.

Veteran Advisor

Re: canada


@bruce MN wrote:

One of the most clever replies I've ever seen here.  Kudos Sam.

 

Followed by one of the more ignorant posts I've ever seen here from you. You sound like one of those folks who would like to think that every American today is descended from that little band who landed at Plymouth Rock.

 

Do you think there was nobody up there before the relative handful of American colonists headed up there? If they hadn't so thoroughly looted their contemproraies here before heading that way they most likely wouldn't have been all that welcome, but like any immigrating force that brings alot of money with them they were allowed to stay, if only tolerated.  What they left here more than anythign was strings of warrents.

 

Canada  had it's own indeigenous population which has been intergrated and intermixed genetically with much more smoothly than here. And of course the big French influence, big long before the Brits officially colonized Canada. The praireis are crawling wtih Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish and Danish immigrant descendants. And lots and lots of Russians and Germans. And religious groups in colonies..Amish, Mennonites Hutterites.

 

And I suppose a smattering of descendants of Tories who migrated per Revolution.


You have a different understanding of the Loyalists than I have bruce.

My understanding is there were just under 100,000 Loyalists and I am not sure what % of the rebel colonies population that would have been but it was not an insignificant number.

I also was left to understand that most if not all the Loyalists left with very little since the rebels did not treat those who were loyal to the Crown very nicely confiscating their property and possessions and forcing them out of the homes.

You call them 'tories' we know them as United Empire Loyalists and in my ancestry I have Loyalists with French roots (that is direct from France to what is now New York State, not Quebec 'French') Scottish, Dutch as well as English that remained loyal and moved or were forced to move.

Some came overland and crossed the Lakes into what is now Ontario. Others came up the Eastern seaboard by ship from the Carolinas to Nova Scotia and later moved into what is now Ontario.

I expect your history was written by the rebels who won the war not those who were forced out.

 

Did you know that there were later migrations of USA citizens into Ontario some years after the rebellion?

Now these later migrants were treated with suspicion and the War of 1812-14 enhanced that suspicion so they were located further inland and the original Loyalists were settled next to the lakes and water crossings as a first line of defense.

As for today the claim has been made that the population of Toronto is the most diverse in the world with people from virtually every country in the world living there and that is immigrants, people born outside our country. The rest of the country has representation of most of these people.

Veteran Advisor

Re: Tom violence and guns etc.

Not sure Tom that they could not have come up with guns, explosives or just kidnapped people if that was the way they decided to conduct themselves and the 'revolution' that happened.

I think and like to believe they saw the advantage and wisdom of conducting a non violent campgain like Martin Luther King of Ghandi.

It is just a much more civilized way to express your wants and leaves your country intact with far fewer people waanting to wreak venegance on some one after you try to organize a new form of government.

I like to think wise men and women realize violence is not a solution but just more problems going forward.

 

I had heard of the pipeline explosion but not many details and it certaily did not make the headlines like the peacefull demonstrations did and it did not get any results either.

Interesting theory on who has the expertise to shut down the internet but I understand that many of the demonstrators did find other ways to communicate and much of the 'damage' to the Mubarak government was done by internet etc. before they tried shutting it down and that only seemed to inflame the situation.

Veteran Advisor

Re: canada

**bleep** that's interesting. All about how history is written,like you say, I guess. They've always been depicted in anything I've read as scoundrels. On the other side of the border they are remembered as refugees.

 

 

Veteran Advisor

Re: canada


@bruce MN wrote:

**bleep** that's interesting. All about how history is written,like you say, I guess. They've always been depicted in anything I've read as scoundrels. On the other side of the border they are remembered as refugees.

 

 


Loyalist 'refugees'

Veteran Advisor

Re: United Empire Loyalist


@bruce MN wrote:

**bleep** that's interesting. All about how history is written,like you say, I guess. They've always been depicted in anything I've read as scoundrels. On the other side of the border they are remembered as refugees.

 

 


From Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Empire_Loyalist

The name United Empire Loyalists is an honorific name given after the fact to those American Loyalists who resettled in British North America and other British Colonies as an act of fealty to King George III after the British defeat in the American Revolutionary War and prior to the Treaty of Paris. Reasons for their movement north range from loyalty to Britain, a rejection of the republican ideals of the American Revolution and an offer of free land in British North America. Many were prominent Americans, whose ancestors had originally settled in the early 17th century, while a portion were recent settlers in the Thirteen Colonies with few economic or social ties. Many had their property confiscated by the rebels[1]

...........

During the American Revolution, a significant proportion of the population of New York, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, East Florida, West Florida, and other colonies remained loyal to the Crown. They later chose or were forced to flee to the protection of their King, within the British Empire. The reasons were as varied as the people themselves, but primary reasons were either loyalty to the King and unwillingness to rebel against the Crown, or the belief in peaceful and evolutionary independence (as occurred in Canada under the impetus of the resettled U.S. Loyalists). As Daniel Bliss of Concord, Massachusetts (who later became a Chief Justice of New Brunswick) stated: "Better to live under one tyrant a thousand miles away, than a thousand tyrants one mile away." Many Loyalist refugees made the difficult overland trek into Canada after losing their place, property, and security during the Revolution. The Loyalists, many of whom helped found America from the early 17th century, left a well-armed population hostile to the King and his loyalist subjects to build the new nation of Canada. The motto of New Brunswick, created out of Nova Scotia for loyalist settlement, is "Hope Restored".[citation needed]

Veteran Advisor

Re: United Empire Loyalist

Crazy thing canuck...I was over at Wiki reading those pages just as you were copying them off Funny we didn't cause it to blow a fuse. Ha1

Thanks for the enlightenment. Still not so sure though that they could have been as stripped of everything as the text there makes it seem, Most surely one would lose his real property if he abandoned it. Some of the other content reveals that some very prominent colonial families were among them  (some of the Penn clan for one) and it states that they were compensated "by the crown").

 

All in allI expect that they contributed greatly to teh growth and progress of a great country. One, even,  that assures health care for all of it's people at half of the cost of it's neighbor to the south. Somebody's done something right.

Veteran Advisor

Re: United Empire Loyalist

I guess Wiki is built to take some 'abuse'. Wonder how many 'hits it gets in an hour?

The point of abandoning their property is many felt they had no choice but abandoning and moving since they were being persecuted by their neighbours so they had no choice to cash in their property before leaving.

There has been some chatter every once in a while about the claims United Empire Loyalists have on your country for property seized back then.

Believe there was some when your country was trying to penalize Canadians and Canadian companies for doing business with Cuba a few years ago.

 

Here is another little clip, this from a book and you may notice the thanks to a U.E.L. organization as well as the U.E. after one of the authors names.

It also notes the Cuba situation.

The multi-culturalism and multi-ethnicity of the Loyalists is often ignored and they are stereotyped as 'English' because of their support of the Crown and their spoken language. But in a review of its members' records, the Toronto Branch of the U.E.L found where national origin of a member's Loyalist ancestor could be ascertained, 28 percent were originally from Germany, 23 percent from Scotland,18 percent from England, 12 percent from Ireland, 8 percent from Holland, 5 percent from France,4 percent from Wales, 1 percent from Switzerland and less than 1 percent from Denmark and Sweden. (not sure I have ever heard numbers like that before but knew from my ancestory that there were many different nationalities that supported the King and moved north)
.......


From 1783 to 1812, the U.E. Loyalists of Upper Canada were joined by many U.E. Loyalists from the Maritime
provinces; by 'late' Loyalists who may have supported the Crown but who were not within the British lines until after 1783; and those who came to swear allegiance to the Crown to escape what one settler termed the "Chaos, Taxes and Anarchy" of the new republic. 

When the United States declared war on Great Britain in 1812, Upper Canada had a population of nearly 100,000, four-fifths of whom were American-born. The Upper Canada Militia and Indians who joined the British regular troops to resist the invasion were defending their homes and farms, as had their fathers and grandfathers in the American Revolution. Their success in turning back the invaders who would have severed the eastern provinces from the future western provinces ensured the development of Canada as a nation.

http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Canada/united_empire_loyalists.htm

Advisor

Re: canada

So basically you're willing to live as a subject so long as the goodies are sweet enough. Our country was founded with the thought that everyone is created equal. The thought that someone is inherently the ruler of all others is so repugnant that I would hope no offer of goodies would entice the populace to submit fealty to nobility.
Advisor

Re: canada

I suspect you're correct, red. A certain inherited need to be ruled, owned. The mix of French up there certainly doesn't help the genome either.