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Senior Contributor

Re: Guns don't shoot people

  OK then, if you claim that it happens so much, then lead me to the stats about it that prove that then. Show me the crime stats from the FBI or the other crime stat bureau. I'll freely admit that the collection or collating of statistics is biased to the point of downplaying the scenarios because of wanting to discourage that type of reaction by law enforcement, but other than the hyped sensationalism stories of those scenarios happening, there are just as many that show the overreactions of people also.

  BTW, I'm not "unfamiliar/untrained with a gun, maybe you shouldn't own one," as I do own and have been trained to use one, and did in the military, and still own some now. 

Veteran Advisor

Re: Guns don't shoot people

Funny how you cite stastistics/studies that support your point of view, yet when someone else says statistics support their point of view, you demand they back it up.  Well, here are some links.

I assume since you are such a firm believer in facts, you will point me to the statistics you mentioned earlier.  I'll be waiting.

 

Here's an article by John Stossel, where he gives his sources:  http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/06/23/guns_save_lives_106057.html

 

An article in the Tampa Bay Online newspaper:

http://beta2.tbo.com/news/opinion/2011/mar/23/MEOPINO1-more-guns-less-crime-ar-3214/

 

One by John Lott:

http://biggovernment.com/jlott/2010/03/01/more-guns-less-crime/

 

One by Richard Young:

http://www.richardcyoung.com/politics/more-guns-less-crime/

 

Hree's one that shows that even if guns laws are very strictly enforced, the murder rate doesn't go down, the weapons just change:

http://gunowners.org/op0746.htm

 

One from the independant:.

http://www.independent.org/issues/article.asp?id=482

 

And another by the Cato institute:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4706

 

I can go on and on.  Now I want to see your stats that prove mine wrong.

Senior Contributor

Re: Guns don't shoot people

  And yet none of those websites are; fbi.gov, NCIC.com, or fas.org. It's ironic that you even linked to the serial liar, Breitbart's website. I don't know which one is more hilarious, him or John Stossel.

 

  A bunch of right wing extremist sites though, just as I figured. At the very least you could have given a link to the entity or organization that you referred to that "trained" you on using a gun and the safety of one. 

Senior Contributor

Re: Guns are like fire extinguishers, Cauck


@BA Deere wrote:

Years ago the Wife had a oil fire going on the stove, she hollered.  When I got there it was a danged big flame, something a wet dishcloth wouldn`t handle.  Well, in a emergency things sort of slow down, I knew where a extinguisher was and I believe that was the first time I ever used one, it saved our house no doubt.  Another time I was combining beans with a old 7700 it was dry and dusty of course and as Mr Murphy would have it a fuel return line sprung a leak, squirting diesel on a hot engine and bean dust.  Needless to say by the time I noticed the smoke in the dust I had a good sized flame going.  Once again things slowed down, I emptied the extinguisher on it and threw soil on it for good measure.  Everyone I tell that story to says "I bet you wish you let it just burn and collect the insurance? Smiley Very Happy"  No, I didn`t it was a damned good machine and I didn`t have insurance.  That Fire extinguisher saved me many thousand$ that I didn`t have.  Be perpared Canuck, be prepared!  


But BA fire extinguishers are made to put fires out.

Guns are made to create 'fire' and destruction.

 

BTW prepared for what? Fires? I have a number of extinguishers and they will work to help put out an intruder too but there is much more chance of a fire than an intruder.

Senior Contributor

Re: Guns don't shoot people


@tomtoolbag wrote:

  Canuck, you're right about the amount of time to react. The gun nuts talk a big game, but statistics prove that they don't have the training or even the courage to react properly, that is to say that when they do, they tend to over-react in those situations or do nothing at all. Also, having a loaded and easily accessible gun when and where you need it when the hypothetical situation arises, is out of the question because one of the biggest detriments to gun ownership is that guns are highly sought after by thieves, more so than other things because of the black-market value and it's lack of traceability back to them(the thieves).

  Statistics also prove that white-collar crime has a more devastating impact when it happens and also long into the future versus mild violent crime, with having a wallet or purse stolen over a life's savings pilfered. The potential for the life's savings to be stolen is higher statistically, but people fear the mild violence or the potential of it of having a wallet or purse stolen more. 


Yes Tom, many people are worried about the improbable happening and then they fall for the most probable.

Senior Contributor

Re: Guns don't shoot people


@Nebrfarmr wrote:

Canuk, this started with someone 'breaking into my house' yet somehow a guy prying the door open with a crowbar isn't part of the equasion.  How will he get into my house without one if my doors & windows are locked?  Once he does get the door open I highly doubt he'll put the crowbar down, just so if I shoot him, it won't be justified.

Tom, while you are quoting statistics, why don't you quote the one where an armed citizen is MORE likely to point their gun at the actual perp (as opposed to an innocent) than the Police are, and areas where gun ownership is high have less crime.  Most of the time, all you have to do is let the perp know you are armed, and they leave you alone, and go find someone to rob who isn't armed.

I learned those stats, and others while taking my Concealed Carry and self-defense class (not required in most states to own a gun, but I highly recommend them if you are considering buying one - just for the sake of being properly informed, as opposed to having only part of the story).  Probably the most important part of the whole thing is the shoot/don't shoot training.  Rather than shooting at anything that moves, or loading your gun and leaving it where a criminal can take it (two very common misconceptions) they teach you things like where to keep your gun, when to retrieve it, when/how to load it, and how to react in various situations, and the most important thing, what to do to aviod an armed confrontation whenever possible.
That said, if you are unfamiliar/untrained with a gun, maybe you shouldn't own one, but why berate me if I want to?

I have never shot anyone accidentally, my guns have never been in a crime, nor stolen, and I have saved more than one baby calf that was being harassed by coyotes with a gun.  So far I have had several positives and no negatives to ownership.  I'm not saying that you should get one, I just ask that you let me keep mine unharassed.


Are you sure that there is less crime in areas with more guns?

I seem to remember seeing that the gun related crimes are falling in your country. Perhaps that was gun deaths but the homes with guns has also fallen from around 40+% to only mid 30% now. The connection I saw with this is there are fewer homes with guns and also fewer gun related crimes.

 

will see if I can find a link.

 

It is also a good point to look for ways to avoid an incident and that is part of what I was saying. Confronting someone trying to break in with a gun is not avoiding the use of guns.

Veteran Advisor

Re: Guns don't shoot people

The entity that 'trained' me was our local sherriff.  If you must know so badly who did it, it was the Valley County Sherriff's department in Nebraska.  As far as official websites, this is all I know of: http://www.co.valley.ne.us/sheriff.html

 

So, tell me, where did YOU get your stats?  If the FBI has stats proving your case, why not tout them?

I did a search of the FBI, and all they have is raw data, no comparisons were charted by them.  How is sending someone on an impossible task, and then when they can't complete it somehow prove that you are right? 

Anyway, here are a couple more sources that link to the FBI database to prove the point:

 

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/fbi-crime-stats-show-an-armed-public-is-a-safer-public/

 

http://www.personalliberty.com/news/fbi-report-gun-ownership-is-up-violent-crime-is-down-800068807/

 

Here is one that cites stats that shows as gun ownership rises, justifiable shootings increase, but crime decreases, using the FBI stats:http://www.gunreports.com/news/handguns/FBI-Releases-2007-Crime-Statistics_891-1.html

 

and lastly, here is one that shows the same stats, and notes that gun control has not shown any decrease in crime:

http://disposablewisdom.com/gun-laws/gun-ownership-up-violent-crime-down.html

 

I think this is the last time I will try to reason with you.  Obviously your mind is made up, since instead of pointing out to me what the actual facts are, and debating them, you merely say my links are by 'liars' and 'right wing'.  Of course they are 'right wing', if the Brady Campaign had stats to show gun control was a failure, they would no sooner publish them than the NRA would publish stats showing where gun control was effective.

Please, by all means, point out the exact lies that are in the links, if you can prove me wrong, I'll freely admit it.

 

Veteran Advisor

Re: Guns are like fire extinguishers, Cauck

 

Spoiler
 

 

 

I've got to ask the question, where is your FBI data that shows that your house is more likely to catch fire that be intruded upon?

Now, remember, it has to be from the fbi.gov website.

Senior Contributor

Re: Guns don't shoot people

  Pajamas media???? Really?????? 'Nuff said, because that speaks volumes. I'm done with you before you get more irrational and make some more belligerent comments, because all you're trying to do now is justify things to me, because you've already justified them to yourself somehow.

  But, I will email the Valley County Sheriff's Department to find out the amount of gun-related violence or crime wave that you seem to be experiencing there.

Veteran Advisor

Re: Guns don't shoot people

The incidents I mentioned happened years ago, well before Officer Casey was elected, and only one was in his jurisdiction, so I doubt he knows much about them.  Since Nebraska passed a decent Concealed Carry law, those sorts of things are unheard of around here.   Feel free to ask his opinion of ordinary law abiding citizens right to be armed, though.  I know what that answer will be.

All I did was a websearch for articles that cited FBI data, who wrote the article wasn't that important to me.  Now that you are bringing up WHO wrote the article, check out the one by Dr. Kleck.  He was a gun control advocate until he went through the FBI stats, and found the areas of the country with the highest gun ownership, and least restrictive gun control laws had less crime.  The others were just whatever article listed the actual FBI study used.

 

You say I'm trying to justify things, but yet you have yet to debunk one thing I have said with an actual fact.  All you are doing is insulting the websites I mentioned.  FYI, I even checked the Brady Campaign website, (formerly Handgun Control, Inc.) and can't find a link there that points to an instance where stricter gun laws ever reduced crime in the US.  I would think if the evidence was there, they would be touting it pretty strongly.  I clearly said that if you could prove me wrong with actual facts, I'd admit I was wrong, I'll do it right on this forum.  Insulting an article, or writer of an article is not citing a fact.