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kraft-t
Senior Advisor

I think the debt debacle is silly

WE either pay for government or we don't. Two options pay for government with revenues which requires us to pay the taxes to support our wants. Or print the money to pay the excess. However, the government does not borrow money from any body. They print it if we are unable to produce revenues.

 

Whats with this printing money and adding it to our debt and paying interest on it. It's illogical. Print the money and the people either pay the cost in increased revenues or inflation. As it is the public is paying the cost of the printing through inflation plus interest.

 

Debt is a problem for most entities but there is no logical reason for government to be plagued by it. They have taxation and they have the printing press. One way or the other the public will pay.

 

The fed and the debt problem are self imposed problems in that the banksters profit from our irresponsibility. What have the done to earn billions in interest payments? Printed the money? That is like giving insurance companies a 15% margin on healthcare costs. A needless additional costs to insurance copmpanies and the fed? That is capitalism raking off profits while the public is shorted.

 

I don't think printing money is the sole answer but taxation is. We have to pay for what we want. Our spending for wars and preparing for the next wars are outrageous plus the interest on the debt incurred. How do you want to pay the shortfall? More tax revenues or do you want the poor, sick and the elderly to pick up the tab?

 

Growth can reduce debt, but it requires a public commitment for those that benefit to provide more revenues to the state. People like you and I and Mitt and warren to pay more as our circumstance improve. And end the notion that some income is exempt. We cannot afford those incentives that have choked off revenues for so many years.

 

You want smaller government, then get rid of your gun toting mindset. That you want to own the largest personal arsonal in the world and your orgy of military might beyond comprehension. And thta is what it is all about. The yearing for a military so huge and so mighty that we can impose our political and economic will on other nations. And that is the aim of the militarist and corporatists.

34 Replies
Taylor ECIL
Senior Contributor

Re: I think the debt debacle is silly

The government can't give unless it takes away first. Econ 100

Faust100F
Advisor

Re: I think the debt debacle is silly

kraft=tttttt -  I agree 100% regarding the debt, all we have to do is tell the FED their Federal Reserve Notes are no longer legal tender, and let the Treasury print the money and pay them off.   The have indicated that they would not accept as legal tender as an example anything minted or printed by the US Treasury.  

 

Well . . . they (the FED) are an United States Corporaton and Chartered here.  They have no standing army to support thier debt collection process, the United States does. Germany is now withdrawing all of its Gold from the Federal Reserve, I think NOrway is going to do the same thing, perhaps we should remove any U.S. Gold stored at the FED.  

 

I think it ironic, that our government would have absolutely zero debt if it printed its own currency no interest that had to be paid to a private corporation which can be shifted to citizens to bail out banks the FED deems too big to fail.

 

 I think when the issue of the platinum coin was discussed (in jest) it was the FED that was the final abiter, not our elected government,  and made the decision it would not accept US Currency printed by our government     in payment of its fiat paper it charges interest on.  I wonder what the FED would do and the big banks would do if their inside men no longrer held the means to keep them floating and have sheeple pick up the freight for their bad gambling debts.  Adios Amigo. John

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

A couple thoughts

I keep hearing how 'the wars' are what are causing the deficit, but here is the total defense budget according to Wiki:

 

For the 2011 fiscal year, the president's base budget of the Department of spending on "overseas contingency operations" brings the sum to $664.84 billion.[1][dead link][2]

When the budget was signed into law on October 28, 2009, the final size of the Department of Defense's budget was $680 billion, $16 billion more than President Obama had requested.[3] An additional $37 billion supplemental bill to support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan was expected to pass in the spring of 2010, but has been delayed by the House of Representatives after passing the Senate.[4][5]

 

 

So, we have annual deficits of over $1 trillion, which seems to be blamed on the cost of the war, but the entire military budget, the whole enchilada, is in round numbers only about half the deficit.    I'm not saying that the wars have no influence, but to say we 'have no spending problem' except for the wars, is, in my opinion, denying the truth.

 

I have no idea of the reasoning behind the trillion dollar coins, except that to me, it seems like you are just paying off your Visa, by charging it on your MasterCard, which is something I have seen people do, as their personal finances collapse.

 

Lastly, to all of you with kids:   What would you tell your kids, if they called you, and said, "Dad/Mom, I make $100K a year, but when I add up all my bills, I find I'm spending $150K a year, what should I do?  Between building robot sqirrels, bridges to nowhere, building myself a luxury bathroom with $700 faucets for the sink, and sending money to hookers in China, really adds up."

How many of you would say  - You need to go out and earn more money?

How many would say - try to find ways to spend less?

 

r3020
Senior Advisor

Re: A couple thoughts


@Nebrfarmr wrote:

I keep hearing how 'the wars' are what are causing the deficit, but here is the total defense budget according to Wiki:

 

For the 2011 fiscal year, the president's base budget of the Department of spending on "overseas contingency operations" brings the sum to $664.84 billion.[1][dead link][2]

When the budget was signed into law on October 28, 2009, the final size of the Department of Defense's budget was $680 billion, $16 billion more than President Obama had requested.[3] An additional $37 billion supplemental bill to support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan was expected to pass in the spring of 2010, but has been delayed by the House of Representatives after passing the Senate.[4][5]

 

 

So, we have annual deficits of over $1 trillion, which seems to be blamed on the cost of the war, but the entire military budget, the whole enchilada, is in round numbers only about half the deficit.    I'm not saying that the wars have no influence, but to say we 'have no spending problem' except for the wars, is, in my opinion, denying the truth.

 

I have no idea of the reasoning behind the trillion dollar coins, except that to me, it seems like you are just paying off your Visa, by charging it on your MasterCard, which is something I have seen people do, as their personal finances collapse.

 

Lastly, to all of you with kids:   What would you tell your kids, if they called you, and said, "Dad/Mom, I make $100K a year, but when I add up all my bills, I find I'm spending $150K a year, what should I do?  Between building robot sqirrels, bridges to nowhere, building myself a luxury bathroom with $700 faucets for the sink, and sending money to hookers in China, really adds up."

How many of you would say  - You need to go out and earn more money?

How many would say - try to find ways to spend less?

 


The biggest drain on the treasury has been the war on poverty. A perpetual war that has been going on for nearly 50 years. Then you have all of the other "goodies" that we American have been voting for such as free abortions, the worst education the most money can buy, the none of the above energy department, tanks and planes for terrorist, anything the UN wants, enough federal agents to keep the sheeple in line, the pedophile TSA, farm payments to billionaires, federal crop insurance with no limits, money for manure pits, 2 dairy buyouts, nutrient management plans, sod water ways, CRP hunting preserves for the citiots, education for the ILLEGAL aliens, health care for the ILLEGAL aliens, guns for the mexican warlords, pension plans kings only wish they could get, education for Chinese prostitutes, porn for government workers, prostitutes for the secret service, Las vegas parties for government workers who brag about how much tax payer money they can dispose of, and let's not forget all of the family vacations the President and his family have taken. But, of course, there in no room for cuts.

kraft-t
Senior Advisor

In an analogy

Take hard narcotic drugs  that are prescribed by pain doctors that provide relief for folks with incredible pain. They say "whoever they are," that a powerful narcotic prescribed to folk in intense pain will not be addicted as long as the patient actually suffers the pain. However, once his pin subsides continuation of the opiate will addict a non suffering person.

 

I don't know how well I described that but the statement has been given some validity.

 

I wonder if we are experiencing the same phenomenon with the printing presses at the fed in that those extra dollars created are not really inflationary with the economy in doldrums. But given some indication of a robust economy in the future may well boost inflation beyond what it is.

 

I always did claim that tax cuts were greatly over rated as a stimulus fior economic developement. Folks always laud and applaud Reagan and JFK for their tax cut stimulas but ignore the clinton tax increase stimulus. All three had similar results with Clinton winning the prize on job creation.

 

There was one thing all three had in common. A positive appeal to the electorate. The charm, the charisma and a positive appeal to the common man. People were enthused about all three. Presidents that were positive and wanted to do something. Consumer confidence arose under all three presidents and the results were positve.

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: In an analogy

From what I learned in History, JFK and Reagan had a similar 'we can fix the problem, if we all pull together' banter, much like Clinton did.

 

However, much of that has been replaced with 'It's someone else's fault', and ''Here's your free stuff".

kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Such nonsense!

Most of the debt was accumulated due the militarism. War & preparing for war as well as expansion of security forces to deal with intelligence and security.. Much of the deficits were caused by military efforts and spending that was kep off busdget. Those billions going to private companies that used to be going to military personal.

 

The argument that the private industries can do it cheaper while they over charge and bilk the taxpayers beyond belief. My brother drove a fuel truck in france and german during WW 2 and he barely got beer money while halliburton was getting billions during the latest conflict. In some case being paid for driving empty fuel truck both ways.

 

If you want to know about deficits, study the debtincreases fiorm year to year. You will find the Modest debt years of Bush 2 do not coordinate with 300 billion in deficits.

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Did just what you said

It lists the 'highest' debt of Bush at 74.1% of GDP, and the most recent year of Obama (2012) as having the debt at 103.9% of GDP

 

 

http://www.skymachines.com/US-National-Debt-Per-Capita-Percent-of-GDP-and-by-Presidental-Term.htm

 

 

 

 

If you look at the chart above, you will notice, that military spending is actually lower in 2011 (when the chart ends) than it was in the 60s, 70s, and 80s.   If you decide to read the entire article, you will notice that while the US has had average growth of the GDP at just under 3%, you will see military spending has had increases of about 2%, while entitlement spending is up an average of 4.8% per year, measured as a percentage of GDP.  One last chart, and here's the link:  http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/16/what-is-driving-growth-in-government-spending/?p...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

gough whitlam
Senior Contributor

Re: I think the debt debacle is silly


@kraft-t wrote:

WE either pay for government or we don't. Two options pay for government with revenues which requires us to pay the taxes to support our wants. Or print the money to pay the excess. However, the government does not borrow money from any body. They print it if we are unable to produce revenues.

 

Whats with this printing money and adding it to our debt and paying interest on it. It's illogical. Print the money and the people either pay the cost in increased revenues or inflation. As it is the public is paying the cost of the printing through inflation plus interest.

 

Debt is a problem for most entities but there is no logical reason for government to be plagued by it. They have taxation and they have the printing press. One way or the other the public will pay.

 

The fed and the debt problem are self imposed problems in that the banksters profit from our irresponsibility. What have the done to earn billions in interest payments? Printed the money? That is like giving insurance companies a 15% margin on healthcare costs. A needless additional costs to insurance copmpanies and the fed? That is capitalism raking off profits while the public is shorted.

 

I don't think printing money is the sole answer but taxation is. We have to pay for what we want. Our spending for wars and preparing for the next wars are outrageous plus the interest on the debt incurred. How do you want to pay the shortfall? More tax revenues or do you want the poor, sick and the elderly to pick up the tab?

 

Growth can reduce debt, but it requires a public commitment for those that benefit to provide more revenues to the state. People like you and I and Mitt and warren to pay more as our circumstance improve. And end the notion that some income is exempt. We cannot afford those incentives that have choked off revenues for so many years.

 

You want smaller government, then get rid of your gun toting mindset. That you want to own the largest personal arsonal in the world and your orgy of military might beyond comprehension. And thta is what it is all about. The yearing for a military so huge and so mighty that we can impose our political and economic will on other nations. And that is the aim of the militarist and corporatists.


You are so right.  This propensity the US has to go to war for no significant reason has to stop.  What these righties  do not want to hear is how the debt got to the size it is.  They have forgotten about the two wars Bush ploughed into, blindly.  Now they rave about Obama not fulfilling things he said.  He is expected to solve the crisis within a year of taking office.  It is almost as if the repigs do not want to take responsibility for the problems they created. It must be remember, Obama never created any of the debt which is so worrying. He inherited it. Obamacare is the only thing so far of magnamious proportions which has cost money.

The Fed have no option but to persue the options which Obama has forwarded. Printing money to pay the bills is the only way forward for now.  The idea of cutting spending and taxing more will send the economy into a tail spin which it will never recover. Those doing the most wingeing are coincidentally, the same ones who know this but it is beyond their mental capacity to acknowledge it. It is always someone else's fault.