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r3020
Senior Advisor

Re: Keystone looks to be dead


@Nebrfarmr wrote:

I was at a meeting, where they said there would be remotly controlled valves every so far (can't remember exactly how far apart, but 50 miles seems to pop to mind) and they would all shut simultaneously, by remote.  In case of them not closing remotely, there would be someone who could shut them off manually, within 45 minutes.

I agree, right now, if the pipeline were to go mid-country somewhere, so the fuel would be 'US only', i'd be all for it.  Right now, I still could go either way.


Would you want our corn or beans to be designated for the US only? What about our ethanol?

r3020
Senior Advisor

Re: Keystone looks to be dead


@Samnospam wrote:
Why don't they put a refinery in the Dakota's?

EPA.

Pupdaddy
Advisor

Re: Did a little search on leak detection

You might need to rethink that statement about crude not being explosive. Number one..it's under pressure, which makes any petrochemical more explosive (example: diesel engines). Number two..it contains all the elements in gasoline.....which if escaping under pressure sure wouldn't need much of a spark to ignite. I remember the reports of Japanese warships from the Second World War that took hits in their fuel bunkers....They were using crude oil rather than "Navy Black" oil in their steam plants....and the resulting explosions were rather spectacular.

hardnox604008
Advisor

Re: Did a little search on leak detection

There is a substantial number of conservatives who wanted and got cheap oil in order to maintain and increase the value of investment in a way of life that has no future- and thereby to direct the structure of our civilization even further into an unsustainable configuration.

 

US oil production peaked in 1970 and has steadily declined since then with a decent bounce from Prudhoe in the 80s (peaked well below the previous peak) and a very modest bump in the present as the investment boom from sharply higher prices begins to bear a little fruit.

 

It is cruel hoax to think that Bakken, oilsands or deepwater are anything other than desperate delaying tactics that might buy us enough time to make some adjustments. Which it appears we aren't at all serious about making anyway.

 

So in a lot of ways, Keystone is just a **bleep** sandwich with a pickle.  Borrowing again from Kunstler and Tainter I think it is a good example of increasing complexity yielding continually diminishing returns (and as a corollary, making it possible for any decent PR operation to obfuscate any rational discussion around it).

 

But I guess I'll fall unenthusiastically on the pro side although the worst thing about all of this stuff is that it somehow reinforces the belief that this game can go on a lot longer.

 

BTW, here is an example of the fact that our society is now clinically insane and it doesn't invoke climate change which is a religious question akin to full submersion baptism.

 

 We're all gaga about the success of fracking technology for extraction of gas and oil. It is now becoming well established that there is seismic activities being triggered by that activity in some places. We're told that it isn't anything to worry about, they're just little earthquakes. If you will, try to temporarily scrub your mind of all the pre-existing ideological stuff and just lay back and close your eyes and think about that for a while. I'll guarantee that you'll laugh until you cry.

 

 

 

 

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Keystone looks to be dead

I have been told that they need a ready source of 'coolant' and a ready water supply is the best source of it.

 

I went to an 'infomation' meeting here in Nebraska about the pipeline.  Came out almost as confused as I went in.


On one side, we had people robot-like giving selective stastics on how 'safe' it will be, (for example, for every oil pipeline that leaks, 10 railcars leak, and 100 semi tankers leak, but they didn't 'have the data' for how many GALLONS occur on the average leak of each kind.  I am smart enough to kow, that a semi tanker, or railcar only holdls so much, but how much leaks out of a pipeline, in the average leak?) and stats on how many jobs, etc, etc.  I also got the impression, that except for maybe the pipe welders, they would only have Union workers in Union States, but I think tha's OK, because the non-union States they are going through have low unemployment, so they are going to have to pay a good wage there, anyway, if they want good workers.


On the other side, you had people talking about the devistation caused by oil spills, that kill all wildlife for 'many years' or 'generations', again, nothing specific. However, I actually KNOW a guy who lives in Alaska, and he says if anyone wants to go to Alaska, he'll take them to the general area where the Valdeez split open, and bets you can't tell where the oil landed on shore, and where it didn't.  I also know that the marshes in LA, that were going to be 'dead forever' are greening back up.  However, no one knows how long it will take for things to get back to 'normal'. Most of their argument, was backed up with emotion, more than any kind of stats.  I even heard one comment about how all the 'sand' in the oil was going to wear holes in the pipeline, causing it to leak all over in just a couple years.

 

Lots of 'selective' reporting on both sides.

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Keystone looks to be dead

I meant to say 'US Refined'.  The fuel could go wherever needed.

I just don't want the oil to go across several US States, to be dumped on a freighter headed to China.  If they were going to do that, put it to a Canadian port.

However, if the US refineries are going to get the job of refining it, I would say I'd lean to favoring it.

hardnox604008
Advisor

Re: Keystone looks to be dead

I'd think that if the Republicans really wanted the folks in Nebraska folks to fall in line they could just threaten to eliminate the ethanol mandate.

BA Deere
Honored Advisor

Re: Did a little search on leak detection

Yes, Red Adair made quite a living from fighting oil rig fires resulting from an expolsion.  I harken back to the good old days when smoking wasn`t such a taboo. The vision of a diesel soaked mechanic holding a dripping fuel injector in one hand and a lit cigarette in the other was explaining to Dad what the problem was, no one thinking anything strange about any of it.  Perhaps if we could bring back that "can do" Greatest Generation we could solve alot of our problems today.  That generation "died" with Ronald Wilson Reagan, now things are run by pencil-necked geeks.  Dad always said "God help you young people when these damned hippies are in charge" hindsight is 20/20. 

schnurrbart
Veteran Advisor

Re: Keystone looks to be dead

Never did really understand this operation very much but got clearer on it yesterday.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  This pipeline would deliver Canadian oil to a Texas port where it would be shipped to Europe.  We wouldn't be getting any of it.  I read that the biggest complaint from you righties is the loss of jobs.  However, like you all said when Obama proposed creating jobs to work on this country's infrastruction was that the jobs would only be temporary jobs and like in 2010 when the census hired tens of thousands of people, they were only temporary jobs.  Well, building this pipeline is only TEMPORARY also.  If Canada wants to sell it's oil to Europe, let them build a pipeline to the St. Lawrence Seaway and ship it.

BA Deere
Honored Advisor

Re: Did a little search on leak detection

Hey Nox, isn`t this funny on this thread some are saying that this tar oil will end up in China, supposedly we have enough to export...apparently. And ethanol that was "going to be killed if corn gets over 5 bucks!!"  and "Ethanol is dead when the government takes away the 45¢ subsidy".  The South Dakota Wildman has proven that we`ve hit peak oil in the 70`s like you say.  This is the great thing about capitalism, the cost will go up and ration out supply, we will never run out of oil, it will just become too expensive at some point to pump. So far gasoline has only kept up with inflation, for proof in 1964 gas was 20¢ and today if you had those same `64 silver dimes you could actually buy more than 1 gallon of gas.  I`ve heard every conspiracy theory out there and one that I heard as a kid about Kissinger and The Club of Rome made some kind of deal with the A-rabs to raise the price of oil to lower the US standard of living seems to be more and more credible after nearly 40 years.  I have follow Lindsey"get a pencil and paper"Williams from way back, he gets his predictions either totally right or totally wrong but he is on the glide path of being right. Williams has said he personally saw that the mother load of oil in Alaska dwarfs the ME and it is being sat on to drain governments in the ME.  These reports about how much oil that fields can produce and such are being conducted by the same type people at the USDA that can`t get a crop report right and I would imagine that oil production is alot less transparent than the nation`s corn crop and supply.  Getting access to a oil company`s books, especially if it`s foreign owned to get a accurate accounting would be not next to but..impossible.