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Senior Advisor

Re: Need more guns!!


@gough whitlam wrote:

You are doing it again. You are flippantly defending the indefensable.  You use the analogy which best fits this scenario. Take all the guns out of society and they will not be shooting themselves for a start.  Can't you see that or are you too dumb to admit it.


Your goals and thinking is identical to that of Barack Obama, remove all guns from society.

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Veteran Advisor

Re: Need more guns!!

So, you are saying that psychos, killers, and drug dealers, would suddenly revert to law-abiding status, if the guns were taken away?

Or are you just saying that with no guns, no one would get shot?

 

If that is true, just make alcohol illegal, and there will be no more drunk drivers, or alcohol related crime.   Oh, wait, we already tried that, care to guess how well that worked?

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Veteran Advisor

Re: Need more guns!!

Here are some stats, of what I was meaning.  I mis-spoke when I said half of all murders are by repeat killers, I typed in killers instead of criminals, and it was my goof-up.  I will not edit the above post, because doing so, would make your thread less credible, and I want to correct the facts, not just make myself look good.

As to the repeat offenders, I found this:

 

http://www.volokh.com/posts/1238081250.shtml

 

Who Are the Murderers (and Voluntary Manslaughterers)?

Are they mostly ordinary folks like you and me who just snap? Or are they disproportionately likely to have criminal records?

I know of no truly comprehensive data on this, but here's what we learn from the intentional homicide line in Justice Department's Felony Defendants in Large Urban Counties, 2004 (a sample that is representative of the large urban counties that account for roughly half of the nation's violent crimes):

  • 83% had a prior adult arrest (compared to likely 25% or so of the adult U.S. population).

  • 76% had two or more prior adult arrests.

  • 55% had five or more prior adult arrests.

  • 65% had a prior adult conviction.

  • 44% had a prior adult felony conviction (compared to about 7.5% of the adult U.S. population, see Christopher Uggen et al., Citizenship, Democracy, and the Civic Reintegration of Criminal Offenders, 605 Annals Am. Acad. Pol. & Soc. Sci. 281, 288 (2006)).

This does not include "arrests or convictions that occurred while the defendant was a juvenile" (I quote here from an e-mail from the author of the report). Since nearly half of all homicide offenders are 24 or under, the exclusion of juvenile arrests and convictions is thus likely to substantially undercount the actual arrest and conviction record. This also doesn't include arrests or convictions that the state effectively expunged or never logged, for instance because someone was allowed a "deferred adjudication," which is essentially probation in lieu of a conviction, so that no conviction would be entered if the probation is finished with no observed violations.

 

 

Now, on to the illegal aliens.  I belive I said that the 90% figure, was in certain areas, I did not mean to imply at all it was nationwide.   I was going by memory, and I may have confused warrants for homocide, as opposed to total homocides, but the numbers still are staggering.  1,200 to 1,500 murders, in one city alone, known to be by illegal aliens.

 

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

 

 

Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

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Veteran Advisor

Re: Need more guns!!

I clearly stated I used the wrong word, in the post.  I strive to correct that.

 

However, in a debate, I wish to see, not only that you disagree with me, but also WHY you disagree with me.  If Canuk can show me that I am wrong, I may very well take his side in the matter. 
I am not a blind partisan, and I do not strive to just win on, or embarrass whom I am debating, but to find the best answer to the problem.  You may not belive me, but if you, or Canuk, can prove to me, using factual data, that your position is correct, I would join your side on this issue.

However, I have found no data, anywhere, that more gun control, has done anything to reduce crime, in the United States.

In fact, I have brought up several times, and no one has yet explained, about how the few places in the US, that have made gun ownership mandatory, have shown sharp drops in all crime, including murders.  Take Kennesaw, Georgia, as an example.  Kennesaw is located near Atlanta, a city with a high homocide rate, but in the many years since Kennesaw has more or less made gun ownership a requirement of living there, there have been ZERO deaths by gunshots.  No murders, no justifiable homocides, not even a death by accidental shooting.  If the presense of guns causes deaths, why is it so safe, to live there?

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Senior Contributor

Re: Need more guns!!


@r3020 wrote:

@Canuck_2 wrote:

@r3020 wrote:

The guy was going to kill his wife. If he didn't have a gun he would use a knife. The one gun did not kill. The one person with the only gun did.


But without a gun the others would have likely been safe AND the wife stood a better chance of surviving or escaping IF there had been no gun.


No proof of that. He could have burned her house killing anyone inside.


Lots of possibilities and without a gun she, as well as the others killed with the gun, would have had a better chance to escape.

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Senior Contributor

Re: Need more guns!!


@r3020 wrote:

@gough whitlam wrote:

You are doing it again. You are flippantly defending the indefensable.  You use the analogy which best fits this scenario. Take all the guns out of society and they will not be shooting themselves for a start.  Can't you see that or are you too dumb to admit it.


Your goals and thinking is identical to that of Barack Obama, remove all guns from society.


I do not follow all your politics so, is that a policy of Mr Obama's or just an idea that those opposed to him for any number of reasons throw out there to get the 30 % of your population that own guns to vote against him?

Highlighted
Senior Contributor

Re: Need more guns!!

It sounds to me like we need to take the guns away from cops then because obviously they shot first and then asked questions.  

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Senior Contributor

Re: Need more guns!!


@Nebrfarmr wrote:

So, you are saying that psychos, killers, and drug dealers, would suddenly revert to law-abiding status, if the guns were taken away?

Or are you just saying that with no guns, no one would get shot?

 

If that is true, just make alcohol illegal, and there will be no more drunk drivers, or alcohol related crime.   Oh, wait, we already tried that, care to guess how well that worked?


You know you will never stop all murders BUT guns make murder easier and more likely to be successful when the attempt is made.

Then add in the errors that cause injury and 'accidental' death that happen with guns.

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Senior Contributor

Re: Need more guns!!

I guess you're right.  We should try to adopt failed policies of the past and continue to beat our heads against a brick wall with regards to guns.  Let's go ahead and ban them like we did with alcohol.  Let's make them illegal just like we are drugs and see if we can be any more successfull with the war on guns than we are the war on drugs.  Let me get this straight, we're going to start a new war because we've bun so successful with our war on drugs and our war on illegal aliens.  We'll just call Helicopter Ben and get him to warm up the printing presses further because the war on guns probably won't be any cheaper than the war on drugs.

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Senior Contributor

Re: More stats

NEB; I think the problem with quoting % and picking some juridictions are covered in this article.

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home/

It starts by pointing out that it is safer in parts of Mexico than in parts of the USA.

What you don’t get from most reports in the US is statistical evidence that Americans are less likely to face violence on average in Mexico than at home, particularly when you zero in on Mexico’s most popular travel destinations. For example, the gateway to Disney World, Orlando, saw 7.5 murders per 100,000 residents in 2010 per the FBI; this is higher than Cancun or Puerto Vallarta, with rates of 1.83 and 5.9 respectively, per a Stanford University report (see data visualization here, summarized on this chart, page 21). Yet in March, the Texas Department of Public Safety advised against ‘spring break’ travel anywhere in Mexico, a country the size of the UK, France, Germany, Spain and Italy combined. Never mind that popular destinations like the Bahamas, Belize and Jamaica have far higher homicide rates (36, 42 and 52 per 100,000). Why the singular focus?

Read more: http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home/#ixzz2AJf4pOj...

 

And I would think the same could be said for your jurisdictions that make guns mandatory.

I doubt that all jurisdictions in the US where guns are not manadatory have a murder in them.