Because of abortion, woman dies

[Canuck_2]

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@Nebrfarmr wrote:

And if you went to our local hospital, with a ruptured appendix, all they would do, would be stabilize your condition, and send you on to another hospital.

Religious beliefs have nothing to do with it.  The hospital just does not do that kind of surgery, which is kind of the point I am trying to make.   If they do not do the procedure there, refer them to some place that does.

Not every hospital, does every procedure, even without any kind of religious overtones.  I am willing to bet, that the Catholic hospitals does not have anyone on staff, who is an abortion doctor.  They probably could not do the procedure anyway, because there likely is no surgeon on staff, certified to perform the procedure.

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But the point is they did do the procedure but by waiting until the heart beat was gone they killed the mother.

And yes there are hospitals in your country that can carry out an abortion but will not until the heart stops beating, then they do it.

These cases are not optional they baby is being 'aborted' naturally but the longer it takes the more misery the mother is pt through and the more risk to the mothers health and chances of survival.

How many women used to die from pregnancy issues before we had the medical knowledge to help them? Now even with they knowledge and ability 'beliefs' delay the procedure leading to a longer recovery and greater risk to the life of the woman.

That is always the problem with a 'belief' based on folklore when it is allowed to over rule science based knowledge.

So many problems could be solved in this world if people would just think for themselves based on the knowledge that mankind has acquired instead of living based on 'beliefs' in old folklore.

[Canuck_2]

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@Nebrfarmr wrote:

So, if it is the law, in Ireland, how is the Hospital to blame?
They are just following the law.

I have heard many,many times on this board, that the law is the LAW, and must be followed.  As I have stated many times, be careful when you rely on too many laws, because law is a double-edged sword.

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But they did not allow the Nazis to say they were just following the law when they killed others.

There was a case, in I think Texas, where a 'Sister' in a Catholic hospital allowed an abortion in a similar case and she got in trouble with her church superiors even though it was not against the law in Texas to carry out necessary medical procedures, just against the church 'beliefs'.

[Nebrfarmr]

The reference to the Nazis is not proper here, because the hospitals are not 'killing' anyone.  In fact, they are being badmouthed, for NOT doing what they belive is murder.   Just think, if 90% of the Nazis would have rose up, and said 'we will not kill the Jews, I don't care if you call them 'not human' or 'not fit to live', we will not kill them'.   Would have that been a better thing?

Actually, now that I think on it more, it MAY be a fitting comparison.  The Catholics are not viewing their anti-abortion stance, as allowing 1 in 10,000 or whatever pregnant mothers to die, they view it, as saving the life of 100% of the proposed aborted fetuses.

As to the Sister, was she in trouble with the 'law' or the Catholic hierarchy?  If she violated the rules of her 'employer', do they not have the right to penalize her?   What she did, was obviously right in her eyes, and probably the best thing to do, but I am sure she was aware of the possible consequences, when she made that decision.

[Nebrfarmr]

You do realize, that at one point 'folklore' had midwives washing their hands, when delivering a baby, and 'science' told the Doctors, they did not have to.

Guess which group had better survival rates.

There can be good advice, from anywhere.  People, however, need to be smart enough to choose what is best.

ALso, if I am not mistaken, 'medical mishaps' are acutally one of the very highest causes of death, in this country.  You doctor is actually many times more likely to kill you, than your gun is.  This sounds like one of those 'mistakes' that happened, because they followed an imperfect procedure.

However, Gored found that I belive 200 women die a year, because of botched abortions.

How many die, because the abortion was not performed?

If one would look at the 'big picture', would there be more, or less, women alive, if no abortions were performed.

I, personally, do not belive that an abortion should not be performed, if it would save the mother's life (you always save the life you can save, or have the best chance of saving, when it comes down to it), but on the other hand, I also do not belive that one should be able to impose their will on a group or institution, to force them to pay for or perform a procedure against their beliefs.

[ollie2655]

that are murdered -DO YOU????

[schnurrbart]

You don't really believe that she went to this hospital to GET an abortion do you????

[Canuck_2]

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@Nebrfarmr wrote:

The reference to the Nazis is not proper here, because the hospitals are not 'killing' anyone.  In fact, they are being badmouthed, for NOT doing what they belive is murder.   Just think, if 90% of the Nazis would have rose up, and said 'we will not kill the Jews, I don't care if you call them 'not human' or 'not fit to live', we will not kill them'.   Would have that been a better thing?

Actually, now that I think on it more, it MAY be a fitting comparison.  The Catholics are not viewing their anti-abortion stance, as allowing 1 in 10,000 or whatever pregnant mothers to die, they view it, as saving the life of 100% of the proposed aborted fetuses.

As to the Sister, was she in trouble with the 'law' or the Catholic hierarchy?  If she violated the rules of her 'employer', do they not have the right to penalize her?   What she did, was obviously right in her eyes, and probably the best thing to do, but I am sure she was aware of the possible consequences, when she made that decision.

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The reference to the Nazis was to the excuse they used, 'they were just following the law'.

So the hospital and staff in Ireland was 'just following the law' and as a result a woman died who might very well have lived if proper medical procedure had been followed and the miscarring fetus removed in a timely fashion.

The sister violated the rules of a church and helped a woman who needed medical intervention.

She got in trouble for it and the church should have for trying to deny the necessary medical treatment.

[Canuck_2]

I think you are referring to a time before science was used in medicine.

Certainly a time before the cause of disease was recognized.

But yes there can be good advice from many sources the trick is to weed out the bad 'beliefs' and replace them with good science based medical treatment.

The case in Ireland was exactly what you say is OK, completing a naturally occuring miscarriage by aborting the fetus quickly to reduce the chance of infection in the woman.

The law and hospital there forced the woman to not get this medical intervention in a timely manner and the result was her death.

Remember one church there forced their belief on a person who did not even believe in thier god and it resulted in her death.

Whose beliefs should be forced on who? 

I am sure if the woman could speak she would think her rights were violated.

[Canuck_2]

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@lpman wrote:

that are murdered -DO YOU????

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Tell me where these million 'children' are being murdered.

It has not been on the news except in war zones where thousands have been murdered by USA bombs etc.

[gough whitlam]

With respect to your both, this argument is going nowhere.  The fact is, there is no god or any other higher being  which you believers spend so much of your time defending.  Canuck's original thread appeared to imply the woman died because of some stupid godbothering nut.  I agree with him to the point religion should not, under any circumstances be practiced in any hospital where modern medicine is practiced.  There is not one single piece evidence on this earth where god has healed anyone or stopped them from dying.  God and medicine cannot be used in the same arena. It is totally abhorrent for someone to suggest god did this or that, let alone attribute some miraculous cure of modern science to god.