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johnaa
Advisor

Re: Hobby votes for demonic possession

   "The vast majority, are on some sort of mind-altering drug,"  

   Can you give the source of that information?

  How many kids who are on medications go on killing sprees?  Certainly not the vast majority, there are millions of kids who are helped by correctly used medications, hopefully combined with therapy.      

 

   "He said, that whenever something like this happens, there are always special interests, who are quick to blame this, blame that, ban this, not ban that, etc,"    

 

  Well I sure do agree with that, and there are sure are a lot of people who are quick to demonize these medications, however in their efforts to make them sound evil they prefer to use the term--"drugs".  Like many religious cult shaman, like Hagee and others.

 

 

   While others are quick to focus on evil looking guns and witchcraft, demons, etc..

 

  

 

johnaa
Advisor

Plenty of photos like that, which are ignored

 "A photo of what a small  5/6 year old looks like after being shot 3 to 11 times a with a ar15.."

 

   Those photos certainly do produce strong emotion in some people who also seem to feel no negative emotions when the dead children are of a different color, ethnicity, religion or some how different from the children of bigots and racists.

 

  Well there are many photos of what children from infancy to teens who have been shot up by M-16, galils, gibboa in Palestine, blow to pieces, buried under the rubble of their homes and schools.   Afghan, Pakistani, Iraqi, children, called bug spats.

 

  But those photos are not shown in the MSM nor are flags flown at half mast for those children and American politicians do not mention them in eulogies and speeches.  There are even many people who cheer and glory in their deaths.  

 

  There certainly is a great deal of evidence suggesting those who have access to machines of death and destruction, like F16, drones, white phosphorus, artillery etc. feel empowered to callously use them for mass murder and millions of their followers cheer them on.   Quite fine examples to influence young minds.

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Hobby votes for demonic possession

That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.   Everyone argues about each little piece, but is there any research, on putting all the pieces together, without an agenda, and seeing where the answers lead?

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Hobby votes for demonic possession

I don't wish to be demonizing, or simply putting the blame, on mind-altering drugs, but rather am wondering if that is another piece of the puzzle.   My dad's neighbor used to be a State Patrol officer, and we were talking once about accidents, and he said it is pretty rare, that there is only one cause of an accident, but there may be a common factor, that while not the one cause, contributes to many.   If you go off the road with your car, chances are it was not just one thing, that caused it.   It most likely is a combination of things like maybe slick roads, darkness, a cell phone call, or alcohol use.  The average driver could handle one, or even two of these factors, but when added together, puts them in the ditch.   Removing one or more of those contributing factors, has the effect of reducing accidents, even if they were not the 'sole' cause of it.  I am just trying to piece together, the common contributers to the shootings.  If we can learn, that maybe it is a combination of 2 or 3 or even 5 or 6 things that cause the shooters to snap, we are that much closer, to figuring out a possible solution.  

 

Somewhere I had read an article, that listed a bunch of shooters, and drugs they were known to take, but I can't find it.  However, since I made the claim, I felt I should do what I could to back up what I said, so if you'll bear with me, I have several links, and will paste blurbs from each link, pertaining to shooters on drugs.   Before I do that, I would like to say, I am not smart enough to know if the use of the drugs were the problem, or misuse of the drugs, or what, but in my mind, once someone is known to be on mind-altering drugs, of some sort, that screams to me, big red flag, that someone knew that they weren't quite normal functioning members of society.

Anyway, to some links:

 

 

http://articles.cnn.com/1999-04-29/health/9904_29_luvox.explainer_1_antidepressant-ssris-drugs?_s=PM...

 

CNN Reports surfaced Wednesday that one of the gunmen in the Littleton, Colorado, school shooting, Eric Harris, was rejected by Marine Corps recruiters days before the Columbine High School massacre because he was under a doctors care and had been prescribed an antidepressant medication.

Harris prescription was for Luvox, an antidepressant medication commonly used to treat patients with obsessivecompulsive disorder.

 

 http://www.happinessonline.org/BeTemperate/p1.htm

 

The kid spoke unsteadily: "I was sitting on a hill outside the school eating lunch with my best friend when Eric Harris came over and started shooting me. I was shot between seven and 13 times. No one really knows the exact number because there were so many bullet tracks. Most of the bullets just went right through me. After I was shot I just lay there, playing dead, and could see others being shot."

These are the recollections of 19-year-old Mark Taylor, who spent nearly two months in the hospital and has endured three years of follow-up operations for the gunshot wounds he received during the murderous 1999 rampage of Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.

Taylor slowly is recovering from his wounds and, in an effort to bring attention to what he believes was the cause of Harris' deadly rage, has filed a lawsuit against Solvay Pharmaceuticals Inc., the manufacturer of Luvox (Fluvoxamine), the antidepressant that Harris had been prescribed and was taking at the time of the shooting spree. Despite the deadly assault against him, Taylor's perception of the young men who nearly killed him is surprising.

Taylor tells Insight, "I'm suing Solvay because I believe that Eric Harris did what he did because of this drug. I didn't personally know Eric, but I knew him as one of the 'Trench Coat Mafia.' Everybody thought Eric and Dylan were the nicest people. My cousin, who was in Eric's class, told me that Eric and Dylan used to bring her flowers and cookies. Eric was forced onto these drugs and I feel sorry for him, like so many other kids who are put on these drugs. I don't have ill feelings against him since I don't think you can hold him accountable, because he didn't know what he was doing." Taylor's lawsuit against Solvay claims that the mind-altering drug Luvox was the cause of Harris' rampage — that the drug made Harris manic and psychotic.

 

-snip-


Other school shooters on antidepressants at the time of their attacks include 15-year-old Kip Kinkel who, while on Prozac, killed his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on classmates, killing two and wounding 22 others; 14-year-old Elizabeth Bush, on "antidepressants" when she wounded one student at Bishop Neumann High School in Williamsport, Pa.; and 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, on Effexor and Celexa when he wounded one teacher and three students at Granite Hills High School in El Cajon, Calif.

 

-snip-

 

In April 2001, then 16-year-old Cory Baadsgaard took a rifle to Wahluke High School in Washington state and took 23 classmates and a teacher hostage. Baadsgaard was held in jail for 14 months. Based on expert testimony by psychiatrists about the adverse reactions to the drugs he was taking, he finally was released from jail under community supervision for five years. Baadsgaard has no memory of his violent actions toward his classmates, which took place exactly 21 days after he had been cold-turkeyed off Paxil and switched to a high dose of Effexor (an SSRI) to treat "situational depression."

Cory's father, Jay Baadsgaard, says, "The morning that Cory went to school and did what he did, my wife and I just knew that it had to be something with the drugs. That morning he had taken about 300 milligrams of Effexor, and I thought it was something about him going off one of the drugs and then the high dose of the other. One of Cory's friends told us that Cory was yelling and then he just stopped, looked down and saw the gun in his hand and woke up."

 

http://www.naturalnews.com/021798.html

 

The Chicago Tribune reports that Cho Seung Hui, the Virginia Tech shooter who killed 32 fellow students in a shooting rampage, was taking antidepressant drugs. This is not the first time a school shooting rampage has been linked to antidepressants. The infamous Colombine High shootings took place almost exactly eight years ago, and the shooters in that rampage were also -- you guessed it -- taking antidepressant drugs.

 
 
-snip-
 

Study summary:

Here's the summary of the study, mentioned above, published in PLoS Medicine:

Recent regulatory warnings about adverse behavioural effects of antidepressants in susceptible individuals have raised the profile of these issues with clinicians, patients, and the public. We review available clinical trial data on paroxetine and sertraline and pharmacovigilance studies of paroxetine and fluoxetine, and outline a series of medico-legal cases involving antidepressants and violence.

Both clinical trial and pharmacovigilance data point to possible links between these drugs and violent behaviours. The legal cases outlined returned a variety of verdicts that may in part have stemmed from different judicial processes. Many jurisdictions appear not to have considered the possibility that a prescription drug may induce violence.

The association of antidepressant treatment with aggression and violence reported here calls for more clinical trial and epidemiological data to be made available and for good clinical descriptions of the adverse outcomes of treatment. Legal systems are likely to continue to be faced with cases of violence associated with the use of psychotropic drugs, and it may fall to the courts to demand access to currently unavailable data. The problem is international and calls for an international response.
 
 

Like virtually all massacre shooters before him, the notorious Batman shooter James Holmes is now reported to have been taking hardcore pharmaceutical drugs. In Holmes’ case, they happen to be the very same drugs that ultimately led to the early death of actor Heath Ledger. With a fix for ‘altering his state of mind’, the ‘Batman shooter’ was heavily hooked on the prescription painkiller Vicodin. Holmes even reportedly dosed up on a pharmaceutical cocktail just before the shooting.

Side effects of Vicodin use, even at ‘recommended’ levels which Holmes likely far exceeded, includealtered mental states’ and ‘unusual thoughts or behavior’.

 
 
 
Sorry it reads so disjointed, but I couldn't find the article that had brief summaries of shooters known to be on some sort of drug or another.
I read somewhere, that full investigations, are often not made public knowledge, because many of the shooters are minors, and there are laws to protect the privacy of minors, even those with criminal records.

 

 

 

johnaa
Advisor

More bias and bigotry, I think

  I'm not prepared to say there is no possibility the drugs have some influence  or causation, however, do not believe there has been any real scientific evidence.   At the time of Columbine there was a lot of half baked opinions floated about the medication which I read but was not impressed with any of it.

 

  Alcohol is the most widely used mind altering drug, others which seem to negatively influence many people are power, wealth and fame

 

  I don't think those sources, (other than the cnn and that is hardly conclusive) are worth basing an opinion on, they are from those who are quick to blame "un-Natural things, they have strong bias and lack objectivity.  

 

  I'm not impressed with Natural News, they have a mindset that anything not natural is evil and their business is selling "natural" cures. 

  The article from happiness online is a similar organization and the author works for a Seventh Day Adventist magazine some of whom have a strong bias against medicine and for faith healing.

 

  The CNN article is more objective and contain this information--

--"It is not known if Harris actually took the medication, and investigators said Wednesday early toxicology tests performed by the medical examiners office showed no evidence of drugs or alcohol in the body of either gunman, Harris or Dylan Klebold."

---snip-"American Psychiatric Association President Dr. Rodrigo Munoz said there is no specific link between these drugs and violent behavior"            

    Despite a decade of research, there is little valid evidence to prove a causal relationship between the use of antidepressant medications and destructive behavior. On the other hand, there is ample evidence that undiagnosed and untreated mental illness exacts a heavy toll on those who suffer from these disorders, as well as those around them, Munoz said

 

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: More bias and bigotry, I think

I'm with you, in that I am not yet ready to condemn any drug or drugs, but rather am wondering if there is enough of a case, for farther investigation.