cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
rsbs
Veteran Advisor

Putting Elders to Sleep

  • The way I see it goin I dont have much doubt but what she'll be able to have an abortion. I'm goin to say that not only will she be able to have an abortion, she'll be able to have you put to sleep. Which pretty much ended the conversation.” ― Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men
Do you think Joe has the same perspective on this as the Hoe does?
13 Replies
WCMO
Senior Advisor

Re: Putting Elders to Sleep

The 1st time my dad went to the hospital, they had already written him off and wanted me to agree to "just keep him comfortable".  This is the way I see Obamacare was trying to go.  I didn't really understand what they meant by that, but "keeping him comfortable" was high on my list.  I quickly figured out what they actually meant -- drug him so he feels nothing, makes him easy to "care for", costs the hospital less, gets the oldies out quicker (in a hearse), can't wake up to drink or eat, and gather the family.  This was not what we signed up for, this was not a "natural" progression of things.  But this is the attitude at some places, "it's for your own good", "no need to stretch things out", "it will be much easier for you".  Since Dad was not in distress when we entered the hospital -- we had gone there for tests and lasix, and he needed a catheter -- it was quite difficult for me to get my head around what the hospital was doing, and quite difficult for me to then get those people to reverse their course.  Finally, just insisted that they quit drugging him so he could wake up and we could see if he could drink, eat and/or talk -- and after I got sisters to understand what was happening, we became vigilant -- hours later Dad awoke, was thirsty and hungry and could both eat and drink, and he could talk with us.  Dad recovered from that hospital episode, though I couldn't care for him at home anymore.  In hindsight, I should have asked more questions (that I never knew I needed to ask) on the way in, and we should have immediately transferred to a different hospital, with a different doctor.  When Dad was recovered enough to move to a nursing home, I found him a new doctor, aligned with a different hospital, and I asked a lot of questions after that experience.  Of course, after going thru that, people came out of the woodwork to relate their similar experiences, wishing I had been aware of those experiences beforehand.   People don't talk about these things much, but they are things we all need to know at some point.

My points -- there are too many who think they know what is best for others, often without input from those others -- it's not that some people are really that stupid, it's just that they know so much that isn't actually so (will attribute this to Ronald Reagan, as I think it's close to his quote) -- society wants to treat dogs like people, but then they turn around and treat people like dogs -- hear what they say, and trust/distrust based on what they do -- etc.

sdholloway56
Senior Advisor

Re: Putting Elders to Sleep

Sure. And if they come for BA's machine guns, Martha Stewart's fowling piece will be next.

My specific problem here is with a guy who can't even manage to fake any empathy or compassion in his posts who's claiming he's all concerned for those pore embryos.

WCMO
Senior Advisor

Re: Putting Elders to Sleep

I don't remember a time when there was no abortion debate.  It has always concerned me that we have allowed the courts to determine the rules, when we obviously have the mechanisms in place to legislatively determine the outcome.  I agree that women (and men) need to have their say in decisions over their own bodies.  At the same time, and at some point, there is obviously another life that must be considered in the abortion issue.   I will never be able to agree with those who say a healthy "fetus" can be chosen to be aborted up to the point of birth.  Nor can I ever agree that a healthy (and live) aborted baby can be allowed to die from inattention, or to be killed -- once the baby is out of the womb, the baby is entitled to all the inalienable rights as you and me, even though it is still dependent on it's caregivers.  I will also never be able to agree with those who say there can't be any chosen abortions after the point of conception -- people make mistakes, a zygote is not a fetus, an embryo is not a fetus, yet at some point, a fetus can predictably survive outside the womb.  For me, it is not a religious issue, it is about health, life, and protecting those who cannot protect themselves, especially those clearly capable of survival outside the womb.  These issues should be reconcilable, outside the courtroom.  Before Roe v Wade, there was variation across the spectrum among various state laws -- clearly, the issues are not confined to certain states -- clearly, the issue should be addressed legislatively at a national level -- and, clearly, this is not a new issue, and one that could have been legislatively addressed many years ago.  It is not THE defining issue of this election, nor at least for me, is it THE defining issue of any election.  And, likely for a substantial majority, this is not THE defining issue distinguishing Democrats from Republicans.   Instead of battling back and forth about Roe v Wade, or the obvious bickering about SCOTUS nominees and justices on this issue, Congress needs to get some backbone.

sdholloway56
Senior Advisor

Re: Putting Elders to Sleep

Generally in agreement.

There are virtually no elective 3rd trimester abortions and there should be none. The ones that are done are deemed medically necessary and I'll trust the doctors and the couple in that decision. About 1.4% of the total.

However that doesn't keep propagandists from falsely claiming that there's widespread baby butchery before or after birth. 

I could probably go along with an outright ban- other than medical necessity- at 15-18 weeks.

The qualms for the pro-Choice people is a real one though- there is a small but extremely vocal group of zealots who won't stop there.

Three's also a small group of zealots on the other side.

Free Contraception For All- a policy that will pay huge ROI far beyond the investment. And policies that make it easier for people to form families and have children.

sdholloway56
Senior Advisor

Re: Putting Elders to Sleep

I have a friend who hated Obama before, but really hates him since he says Obamacare killed his Dad.

The guy was in his late 80s, had had several heart procedures and was diagnosed with Alzheimers, which was becoming quite obvious. He was very angry that he had to go to adult daycare a couple days a week to give his wife a break.

The doctors said that he was not a good candidate for for another heart surgery and he died fairly soon after.

Incentives in ACA may have had some influence on that- it used to be that if the family wanted their loved one cut up or drugged some more, then they'd just do it since Medicare would pay until the patient died. Now there's a penalty if you perform a lot of surgeries with bad outcomes, and that has as much to do with the prospects of the patients as the skills of the doctors.

My friend who's a Doc says that no matter how conscientiously you try to explain to people- and families in particular- that the potential outcomes aren't very bright and are more likely will make it worse- they'll almost always say go for it.

I had a friend who looked at the prospects that were presented to him for his leukemia and chose to forego treatment. I always respected that. But it was also 20 years ago and I think that specific case would probably look different today. If you were the age he was, anyway.

 

WCMO
Senior Advisor

Re: Putting Elders to Sleep

Yep.  In my Dad's case, no surgeries were needed, just lasix, a catheter and observation/care, he was 88 at the time.  I wasn't really blaming Obamacare as much as I was the doctor and the hospital.  In the case of Obamacare/Medicare, have had the situations where the doctor or hospital or nursing home were intent on defining and limiting their actions and care based on what Medicare would say or pay, as opposed to identifying what was actually needed and let us decide.  For my folks, they had Medicare, a good supplemental policy, and long-term care insurance, plus a decent liquid net worth.  Whether or not Obamacare/Medicare would say to do or not to do something, or to say whether or not they would pay for something, wasn't our primary issue, just a consideration.  In the end, I found a doctor more in tune with our thinking for my Dad, and also moved Mom over to the same doctor at the same time.  And, importantly, that doctor was also aligned with a hospital system that was also more in line with our opinions.  Again, unfortunately, we often don't really know how much of this medical posturing stuff works until we're in the middle of it and feeling helpless, then if we're in the wrong place, we're dealing with people who aren't very helpful. 

Have had a few friends, neighbors and relatives that have chosen to forego treatments, especially when given low odds for recovery.

 

sdholloway56
Senior Advisor

Re: Putting Elders to Sleep

My sense of it is that the line is still pretty low.

Tons of stuff done that doctors probably suspect is a waste or worse.

If they decline, prospects really are poor.

rsbs
Veteran Advisor

Re: Putting Elders to Sleep

WCMO, you are spot on in your original assessment here. I witnessed the same thing with my late mother....the hospital has a person basically that is charged with steering the elderly into a route of taking higher morphine doses until they die, rather than more expensive treatments that might prolong life. 

Remember when Sarah Palin was much maligned for bringing this to light, and calling them the "death panels"?

As far as your parent having a good Medicare Supplement to go along with Medicare/Obamacare.....well, the truth is that those supplements do not pay anything extra to the hospital....they still have to try to exist on 40 percent payments and that is why they really don't want to have any excess medical procedures done on the elderly. What the supplements do is to pay the patients share of Medicare charges, the co-pays which usually are not that much anyways. That is why supplements are cheap in comparison the the current real world of insurance cost shifting.

Aldous Huxley was an optimist in his views of the future in "Brave New World". People "get this" all over America right now...that is why you see a sea of "Trump/Pence" signs up and why Trump supporters will walk over glass to vote. It is also why nine states are mailing out a sea of ballots to try to change the votes.

 

sdholloway56
Senior Advisor

Re: Putting Elders to Sleep

Sarah Palin is so stupid that I'm certain she'd demand an elderly relative be tortured with a counterproductive procedure and then call in the witch doctors to chant for a miracle.

Medicare pays about 70% of private insurance on average, although that's easier to aggregate than individually since nobody really knows what private insurers pay.

Not a bad deal when there's minimal paperwork and it is easy to pre-approve and know you'll get paid.