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dagwud
Senior Contributor

Re: Roberts criticism of Ron Paul

My only problem with Craig's article is the line, "Social Security and Medicare are contracts that government made with citizens."

I understand what and why he says it but I tend think of a "contract" as something entered into by both parties voluntarily which is not the case here.   The government decides on programs such as Social Security and Medicare and the people have no say on if they want to enter into these programs as their money is automatically deducted out of their pay checks.

johnaa
Advisor

Re: Roberts crticism of Ron Paul

 I fully agree with Roberts, it is the reason I stopped attending most LP events and join with some realistic libertarians to accomplish what we can.  I'm not so certain Russia and China are not prepared to act, nor convinced the EU puppets can keep their population in control when the balloon goes up.

hardnox604008
Advisor

Re: Roberts criticism of Ron Paul

The mandatory nature of participation would seem to reinforce the mandatory nature of paying the benefits, don't you think?

Samnospam
Advisor

Re: Roberts criticism of Ron Paul

Yea, except the mandatory is not a 2 way street regardless of how much people would like to think it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemming_v._Nestor
bruce MN
Advisor

Re: Roberts criticism of Ron Paul

Not to argue the merits of the programs or to go into anything about how the accounting and managemetn of the funds has been carried out, but you are dead wron about the "entering into" thing.

 

Both programs were initiated by duly elected members of the U.S. Congreess and signed into law and action by duly elected Presidents.  One a fiscally conservative banker installed Democrat (FDR) who fought every bit of stimulus that was proposed in his generation tooth and nail but was overun by the Congresses he served over.  He ironically went down in history as a liberal icon.  The other a liberal Keynes inspired  Republican who ultimately went down in history as a crass conservative voer tangential matters.

 

Whichever the case, those particular members of Congress who passed those initiatives and the Presidents who signed them were elected by the people via our long standing democratic process of elections.  If there were enough people today who felt that the most important thing on our collective plate would be to eliminate those 2 programs thye'd have elcted people who would vote them out of existence.  But they haven't.  Get another chance this November.

 

What would your predicion be on the results if a direct national referendum on SS and Medicare were held ?   That will never happen as their is no Constitutional provision for such a thing, but how do you suppose it would go?

Samnospam
Advisor

Re: Roberts criticism of Ron Paul

Bruce, its as if you do not understand our system of government, which I know is not true. Our elected representatives can not sell us into bondage, the majority cannot enslave the minority.

 

Well, lets change that.  Theoretically.  

 

The application has been the opposite.

 

So, stop whining about the corporations, if the government allows them to run over you, TFB, just like its TFB if the government runs over me.

bruce MN
Advisor

Re: Roberts criticism of Ron Paul

Speaking of the anti-christ, you'll probably like this quite a bit.  Kunstler rips PK a new one for his column today where he expresses some faint optomism.  Which JHK sees as assinine.

 

Soul mate for ya':

 

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/01/murmuration.html

 

The history of those 19th cnetury movementss stuff is just plain interesting and cool also.   No matter how you see things or might apply the record of them to today.. 

 

 

Column that drew his ire:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/23/opinion/krugman-is-our-economy-healing.html?_r=1

 

FWIW, I also think PK has his head up his kazoo on this one.  Housing isn't stabilizing.  Maybe in the New England suburbs or somewhere, but not in any of the proverbial "belts".   It's seeking swamp water level.  And no way that there won't be some real spillover from Europe's starvation tactics..

 

 

 

 

bruce MN
Advisor

Re: Roberts criticism of Ron Paul

What is gremaine to dags questions and not slipping off into the ditch as you do here is that those 2 programs were proposed, written, dicsussed and passed by elected members of the U.S Congress. and each signed into law by a President.  All of them having been elected to those posts by the people. 

 

How one feels about how that is all working out is one thing, but how it came to be is another.

Red Steele
Veteran Advisor

social security is actually voluntary

you can, to the best of my knowledge, opt out of the social security system, too. Mennonites invaribably don't pay into the system and don't receive benefits. There is a form where you can say that you are religiously opposed to public forms of welfare, and then you can cease paying in. Ministers can do this, too, regardless of religion. You don't get social security coverage, though.

 

someone I know, that got into trouble for not paying his taxes , told me that he sued the IRS for harassment, won a judgement, bought a boat and a car with the money, and also as part of the settlement he no longer pays social security taxes. I think they applied what he had paid into the system in the past to his tax debt and let the small fish go.

 

So there is a lot more that goes on than you would realize. If people really fervently are opposed to social security, I think they can legally quit paying into the system. Something to think about for the diehards.

Samnospam
Advisor

Re: Roberts criticism of Ron Paul

That only matters if the constitution is subverted. Which of course it was.

 

I.E. elected officials can't pass any law they wish regardless of whether the majority wants it or not.