cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
r3020
Senior Advisor

The begining of the end.

snip-

London, 05 July 2011 -- Moody's Investors Service has today downgraded Portugal's long-term government bond ratings to Ba2 from Baa1 and assigned a negative outlook. Concurrently, Moody's has also downgraded the government's short-term debt rating to (P) Not-Prime from (P) Prime-2. Today's rating action concludes the review of Portugal's ratings initiated on 5 April 2011.

 

The following drivers prompted Moody's decision to downgrade and assign a negative outlook:

1. The growing risk that Portugal will require a second round of official financing before it can return to the private market, and the increasing possibility that private sector creditor participation will be required as a pre-condition.

2. Heightened concerns that Portugal will not be able to fully achieve the deficit reduction and debt stabilisation targets set out in its loan agreement with the European Union (EU) and International Monetary Fund (IMF) due to the formidable challenges the country is facing in reducing spending, increasing tax compliance, achieving economic growth and supporting the banking system.

 

http://www.moodys.com/research/Moodys-downgrades-Portugal-to-Ba2-with-a-negative-outlook-from?lang=e...

14 Replies

Re: The begining of the end.

You neglected to mention that responsible for all of this global financial turmoil would be the Obams adminstration and the Democratic minority in the U.S. House of Representatives through all that they have done in the past 26 months to bring it on.

 

You need to read conservative icon and mouthpiece David Brook's column from yesterday's paper.

 

.http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2011/07/05/david-brooks-on-gop-no-sense-of-moral-decency/?cxnt...

 

 

r3020
Senior Advisor

Re: The begining of the end.

Bruce, was Brooks for TARP or against TARP?

Re: The begining of the end.


@r3020 wrote:

Bruce, was Brooks for TARP or against TARP?



I have no idea. I have read him only sporadically.

 

He has known what he said in the column yesterday for years, but is such a shoulder rubber and brown noser with the D.C. corporatist GOP elites that it took him this long to finally get around to saying what anybody with half a brain has known since 1994.

Re: The begining of the end.

Is that the new litmus test?

 

I personally regret supporting the Bush admin's TARP program because I've concluded that we would be just as well off having entered a depression then.

 

As to the Portugal downgrade, I don't know. There have been any number of events that I thought were it but the can keeps getting kicked down the road and "markets" are fairly happy with it.

 

A discussion that I'd intended to try to start that pertains to Greece, etc., is, what if they'd bailed out Lehman?

 

There would have still been a huge amount of bad paper infecting the whole global financial system but basically if you just say it is worth face value for bank capital purposes, everybody is happy, right? At least that is how it is playing now.

 

The EU seems to have taken that logical conclusion away from the experience anyway.

 

I really don't have a clue how it plays out.

 

tomtoolbag
Senior Contributor

Re: The beginning of the end.

  I'm not trying to minimize Portugal's debt, but Moody's played a big part in the mess we're in now, globally. That and the fact that their debt has put them in the position to where it could be recalled at any time, or that they couldn't service it. Don't think for a minute that Moody's isn't catering to some big banks with the release of the info in an attempt to do a like asset grab on that country like what Greece just went through. Mandatory payments and permanent debt slavery for the citizens of Greece as far as anybody can see into the future.

  Or, they could have done what Iceland did and said screw off. Then they're punished for not bowing to the big banks demands. Look at what some of the various states here have sold off for pennies on the dollar to satisfy bank and other debts, and yet the debt was paid dollar for dollar.

r3020
Senior Advisor

Re: The begining of the end.


@hardnox604008 wrote:

Is that the new litmus test?

 

I personally regret supporting the Bush admin's TARP program because I've concluded that we would be just as well off having entered a depression then.

 

As to the Portugal downgrade, I don't know. There have been any number of events that I thought were it but the can keeps getting kicked down the road and "markets" are fairly happy with it.

 

A discussion that I'd intended to try to start that pertains to Greece, etc., is, what if they'd bailed out Lehman?

 

There would have still been a huge amount of bad paper infecting the whole global financial system but basically if you just say it is worth face value for bank capital purposes, everybody is happy, right? At least that is how it is playing now.

 

The EU seems to have taken that logical conclusion away from the experience anyway.

 

I really don't have a clue how it plays out.

 


 

Nox, the trouble with bailing out countries is the same as TARP....NOTHING CHANGES!!! The same people are still in the same position, doing the same thing as before. How many bailouts are we as tax payers, who basically are the IMF, willing to fund? Portugal is like Greece, they have already burned through one bailout and they are at junk status. The insanity has to end.

 

Re: The begining of the end.

I think that default is the best option.

 

But serious discussion of how you go about mitigating contagion in such an event seems to be lacking. I'd suggest that is a good idea no matter how badly some folks want to see a morality play.

 

Probably we can learn something from what we maybe should have done instead of TARP.

 

That would be a form of managed bankruptcy or restructuring for the banks in the basic order of bankruptcy claims- shareholder equity is wiped out first,the preferred shareholders, then general bondholders and finally if it takes that much- preferred bondholders.

 

Then comes the hard part. You'll have to figure out how to raise new capital for the banking system in a private market that is already reeling from some major hits from absorbing those huge losses.

 

If providing funding or guarantees from the public sector is strictly verboten then you will have to lean on the private capital market very hard and sustain some pretty steep losses in equity value across the board globally and very tight credit markets amid a sharply contracting economy.

 

And of course even without any public funding, tax revenues are going to drop sharply. And if you need to balance the budget by spending cuts, then employment and aggregate demand drop further.

 

Like I wrote earlier, the Republicans are geniuses- we need a depression now, before it gets worse. Although they weren't geniuses when they were voting for TARP and hoping to dump it on the other guys before it went bad.

 

 

Re: The begining of the end.

I suspect we- or economists and economic historians- are also to some of their own myths.

 

Prime among those would have been that if the failure of Credit Anstalt in Austria in 1931 had been prevented then the hard leg down in the global depression could have been fenced in.

 

I rther doubt it. I'm thinking that when you reach a certain level of debt saturation and wealth concentration the god of economics just calls for a jubilee.

r3020
Senior Advisor

Re: The begining of the end.

Nox, may be you forget who was in control of congress in 2008 and many, many, many of the repubs who voted for TARP are no longer members of that organization. They were forced out by people who hold in even higher contempt.........BAGGERS!!!!!