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Honored Advisor

Re: guess you missed the point

Hey Ollie and GTO, I agree with both of you.  The unions got greedy and pushed things too far, to unsustainable limits actually.  When each GM workers check has to support 3 retirees, that Ponzi pyramid scheme couldn`t continue.  Then on the otherhand workers need protection or if they get beaten down to substandard levels, they will turn to communism or blame the "Jews" and turn nazi.  The reason factories went overseas was pure greed, if the yellow or brown man works for pennies a day, there is absolutely NO way that a first world country can compete with that, no matter how productive they are.  Products coming into this country should be tariffed to level the playing field, if companies are going to be that ruthless.

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Veteran Advisor

Re: The peace loving left.

Pretty depressing post there, and probably mostly true, too.

 

Makes you wonder somedays about why you even get out of bed and work so hard....our goose seems to be cooked and there seems to be no way out of the current mess short of a collapse and restart. And that does not happen peacefully, nor does it end well if we copy the German model.

 

I really cannot understand the mindset of any liberal today...how could you possibly look at the world the way it is and think that more government entitlements are going to accomplish anything, when the government is already bankrupt?

 

 

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Senior Contributor

Re: The peace loving left.

A GOPher majority in both houses?? HAHAHA!! Man, your back to smokin' alfalfa again I see! Disapproval of Congress is 82%, and the Republicants are leading the way with 2%. After the campaigns start, and the voters are reminded everyday of how they have had only one objective, (beating the President) and NOT doing what they were voted to do in '10 (jobs and economy) they are toast. The war on American workers wages will also contribute to their doom, so have your fun, it's going to be a miserable 40 years.

Highlighted
Senior Contributor

Re: a big problem

is a union workers pay usually exceeds his prodution ability --that is where the real greed lies--many union members have bragged to me about how little they have to work--on the other hand other colors of people have a good work ethic and the companies see this--nobody ever gets beat down if they dont like the job or pay QUIT--but then that would take backbone which most of the brethren dont have

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Senior Contributor

Re: guess you missed the point


@BA Deere wrote:

Hey Ollie and GTO, I agree with both of you.  The unions got greedy and pushed things too far, to unsustainable limits actually.  When each GM workers check has to support 3 retirees, that Ponzi pyramid scheme couldn`t continue.  Then on the otherhand workers need protection or if they get beaten down to substandard levels, they will turn to communism or blame the "Jews" and turn nazi.  The reason factories went overseas was pure greed, if the yellow or brown man works for pennies a day, there is absolutely NO way that a first world country can compete with that, no matter how productive they are.  Products coming into this country should be tariffed to level the playing field, if companies are going to be that ruthless.


BA I think you areoverstating the pension problem with your comment.

Think there was a news item recently about GM topping up the pension 'fund' to help out the liability it has. NOTE it is a fund that pays the GM pensioners, all the money does not come out of GM earnings. I expect the GM pension fund suffered the same problem as many funds, when the market turned down the investments were not worth as much so there is a future liability.

I think the news item also said GM would have it fully funded again in less than 2 years. I therefore assume it is a defined benefit plan which GM has to make up the difference when the accountants are off on their projections.

 

As for tariffs there are 2 sides to a tariff. Here is an article about the ramifications of a tariff and you might study what happened in the GREAT DEPRESSION regarding tariffs.


Except in all but the rarest of instances, tariffs hurt the country that imposes them, as their costs outweigh their benefits. Tariffs are a boon to domestic producers who now face reduced competition in their home market. The reduced competition causes prices to rise. The sales of domestic producers should also rise, all else being equal. The increased production and price causes domestic producers to hire more workers which causes consumer spending to rise. The tariffs also increase government revenues that can be used to the benefit of the economy.

There are costs to tariffs, however. Now the price of the good with the tariff has increased, the consumer is forced to either buy less of this good or less of some other good. The price increase can be thought of as a reduction in consumer income. Since consumers are purchasing less, domestic producers in other industries are selling less, causing a decline in the economy.

Generally the benefit caused by the increased domestic production in the tariff protected industry plus the increased government revenues does not offset the losses the increased prices cause consumers and the costs of imposing and collecting the tariff. We haven't even considered the possibility that other countries might put tariffs on our goods in retaliation, which we know would be costly to us. Even if they do not, the tariff is still costly to the economy. In my article The Effect of Taxes on Economic Growth we saw that increased taxes cause consumers to alter their behavior which in turn causes the economy to be less efficient. Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations showed how international trade increases the wealth of an economy. Any mechanism designed to slow international trade will have the effect of reducing economic growth. For these reasons economic theory teaches us that tariffs will be harmful to the country imposing them.

http://economics.about.com/cs/taxpolicy/a/tariffs_2.htm

 

Highlighted
Senior Advisor

Re: a big problem

Union workers are only getting compensation that the companies agreed to. If they are overpaid in wages or benefits, then the responsibility lies with those that signed the contract.

 

As far as you are concerned, it is none of your damned business what the terms are of negotiated agreements. It's just not your concern.

Senior Contributor

Re: The peace loving left.


@r3020 wrote:

Yes Bruce, totally independent. Was at a couple thousand head/year. Had some breeding problems. Depopulated on one farm with plans to get back in. Might wait a little longer with the price of corn.


Breeding problems?

Not PRRS I hope.

Just hearing there are problems in Ontario with a new strain that has really devastated production where it hit. Mortality of sows was even quite high.

In feed mill driven 'loops', so people just feeding pigs for a fee have empty barns as the supplier has no pigs to put in them.

Highlighted
Veteran Advisor

Re: Is This Where You Are At?

If you folks had listened to the speech.  He said that we have to get out and vote in order to take these sobs out.  There was NO call for violence such as you putting a crosshair on Obama.  That left little doubt in my mind what you were trying to do.

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Honored Advisor

Re: guess you missed the point

Hey Canuck, this "legacy costs" were there are too many pensioners to the amount of workers are doomed to fail, that`s exactly what`s going on with the Post Office today.  Free trade is one of my hot buttons. See on your farm you can`t continue to spend more than you take in, that`s what`s happened for probably 30 yrs with the US trade deficit, since we started worshipping at the alter of free trade. Tariffs are the only way to level the playing field, unless you want your citizens drug down to the 3rd world level.  During the Great Depression it was a totally different ball game than today.  Back then 1/3 of the people were farmers, it wasn`t cost effective to pack up a steel mill or packing plant and move it overseas, so while there were tariffs on raw materials coming in, it didn`t totally destroy our manufacturing base like today.  I mean just look, are we supposed to just survive on stocking Walmart shelves and flipping burgers? It seems to me rather than run monthly trade defictshttp://www.usdebtclock.org/   of $400 billion/month we`d be better off doing nothing, instead of digging the hole deeper.

Highlighted
Honored Advisor

Re: a big problem

Hey Ollie, the Chinese factory workers get $3/hr the US fact worker $22/hr   http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2078121,00.html  plus China has less safety and envro rules (not all of which are a bad thing, common sense should prevail)   It isn`t even close, a company that only eyes the bottomline will move that the drop of a hat and companies that don`t, will go broke.  Ollie, I don`t think we would want to see a United States that emulates China where the workers make $3/hr and if a machine flies apart, a worker loses a eye it`s "tough cookies.... Next!".  The real kicker of the Time magazine story link is that China is no longer the cheapest workers...at $3/hr?...Uff-Daa.