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kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions, Associations & the Constitution

I don't take advantage of all the deductions that are available to me. Tax avoidance is not my primary concern. After tax income is. I don't spend money just to avoid tax. I pay the tax and the money left over is called working capital. Money I can do things with.

 

I learned that lesson some years ago with my Sep program. I was investing to save taxes and the money was going into the market. Less tax liability, but I was having difficulty raising capital for down stroke on land. Thus I cashed in the Ira paid the taxes and penalty and invested the funds in farm land. That is exactly why I do not look for every deduct known to man because I am using the cash to retire real estate debt. I **bleep** near got it done to.

 

I don't know why you need to see my returns, but I won't put it put them out for public viewing, but if you stop in for a visit I will show them to you. I'll tell you this I bought a very nice new lincoln a month or so ago and I sent almost as much to Uncle Sam, the state of Iowa and oklahoma.

 

What that has to do with term limits is beyond me. But whether you vote for Grassley Harkin or anyone else more than twice, it indicates that you think that term limits are not the best for everyone. So it is about limiting the terms of those you don't like noit the ones you do.

 

No I cannot solve the national debt problem by my self and I will not attempt to do so. However, You can vote out your congressman and senator at every opportunity. And it won't cost you anything.

 

BTW what opposite effect does the farm program have? What did you expect and how is it different?

 

Yes, I believe that the tax code should return to the Clinton era for everyone. The country needs the money and we have too much debt.

dagwud
Senior Contributor

Re: Unions, Associations & the Constitution

Several years back we were told that the federal government was going to subsidized crop insurance to help wean farmers off farm payments.  However years later we still have see very large amounts of tax payer dollars being given out to farmers every year like annual birthday presents no matter if they suffered a bad year or not.

 

 

Originally farm payments were met to act as buffer for farmers in times of poor crops and low prices.  The farm program much like many of our entitlement programs started out with noble causes but over the years was expanded to more and more people with more and more programs and at the same time made easier and more lenient for people to participate in.  Just as some people have learned how milk or maximized other entitlement programs so have farmers with the farm program.  Our farm programs allow farmers to collect millions of dollars and encourages them to get bigger and bigger.   We even have tax payers helping pay for new grain drying systems for farmers worth millions. 

 

 

While the farm programs were originally meant to help ensure the survival of family farms and rural communities it has resulted in the exact opposite according to Neil Harl and many other highly respected ag economists.  Now instead of having 10 or 12 families farming 10,000 acres and putting 30 kids through the local school and making purchases at the local businesses we have a single BTO farming 10,000 acres putting 2 kids through school and making less purchases with local businesses while hiring mainly season part time help with no benefits. 

 

 

Our farm programs have also discouraged organic farming plus made it less desirable to grow fruit and vegetables resulting in our country importing more and more of those products from other countries.

 

 

I wasn't serious and don't need to see your tax return Don as I was only trying make a point.  If you think I shouldn't vote for certain incumbent Repubs because I believe term limits would be good for a more honest government that better represents the people as opposed to special interest groups then I think it would only be fair for you to forgo any tax breaks available to you since you so strongly believe we should all pay more in taxes.   While I think there is much merit in your business plan to not buy equipment simply to lower one's tax liability I still am confident you have taken and will continue to take numerous tax deductions available to you even though you firmly believe we should all willingly pay more in taxes. 

 

 

Not trying to instigate anything but I am curious how you and others feel about having term limits for POTUS but not for Congress?

kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions, Associations & the Constitution

So you think farmers shouldn't take deductions for farm expense or is it just this farmer that you think shouldn't take legitimate expenses. The difference being that I beleive we all should pay more taxes. Not just me. You obviously think I alone should pay more taxes because I favor raising the rates for everyone. Hmmm interesting logic.

 

Compare that to you that believes in term limits yet votes to elect his favorite congressman year after year, decade after decade.

 

You can voluntarily stop supporting incumbants after they serve two terms. It costs you nothing to vote against him. Absolutely nothing.  That would really show your commitment to term limits if you refused to vote for a someone running for the third term. Other wise, it appears your a bit week on your commitment.

 

Yes I will publically commit to returning to the Clinton tax rates. I will support that will you?

dagwud
Senior Contributor

Re: Unions, Associations & the Constitution

Don said: "So you think farmers shouldn't take deductions for farm expense or is it just this farmer that you think shouldn't take legitimate expenses. The difference being that I believe we all should pay more taxes. Not just me. You obviously think I alone should pay more taxes because I favor raising the rates for everyone. Hmmm interesting logic."

 

 

From the great movie "Cool Hand Luke" I offer up the following, "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

 

 

 

I don't want to see your tax return nor do I actually think you should not be able to take your tax deductions.  It was you who suggested that since I believe term limits would be good for our country that I should not vote for any Repubs who have already served two terms even though we do not currently have term limits.   I simply replied that if that is how you feel then it would be only fair for you who believes we need to all pay higher taxes, that you should voluntarily pay more in taxes and not utilize all the various tax deductions available to you.  I was attempting to show you how my "Interesting logic" is the very seem logic you are using. 

 

kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions, Associations & the Constitution

You do have a failure to rationalize. It costs you nothing to vote against incumbants after two terms. You favor that for every elected official. Then why in the world would you vote for a third term for anybody?

 

AS to my tax issues, I do favor raising the tax rates for everybody. Presently, I don't seek out every possible deduction. That doesn't mean I don't use any deductions as you seem to think I should given my position on tax rates.

 

You seem to think you are proving my hypocracy. No I don't pay 100% of my income in taxes. What would you think would be my appropriate rate given my position on raising taxes? So I guess I'm a hypocrite for not doing that.

 

BUT then back to you. What would you call a man that is adament about term limits, yet still votes for long term incumbants? Is that too big a sacrifice for someone that wants to dismiss everyone after two terms?  That indicates to me that you really aren't that serious about term limits.  Like Obama you want to give exclusions to those you like. BTW do you have your birth certificate? Ha!

 

BTW  You really shouldn't vote for any third termer whether they are sane or repubs or anyone else for that matter. That is if you are really committed to term limits.

dagwud
Senior Contributor

Re: Unions, Associations & the Constitution

I tried to make it clear that I don't agree with that way of thinking and was simply pointing it out to you who first suggested I not vote incumbent Repubs.  As long as we don't have term limits I will continue to vote for the candidate I think is best for the job no matter the party affiliation.   If that person is a long term incumbent I will vote for them.  Just as with collecting farm payments it makes no sense to me for me to play at a disadvantage as long as others are playing by the rules allowed.  I think the same would apply to you and your taxes.

wt510151
Senior Contributor

Re: Unions, Associations & the Constitution

"Just as with collecting farm payments it makes no sense to me for me to play at a disadvantage as long as others are playing by the rules allowed.  I think the same would apply to you and your taxes."

We are playing chicken in this matter, waiting for someone to fold or blink. How ignorant is it for the entire country to think this way and expect a few hundred representatives to think differently for the betterment of all? The economy is at its current point because all sides have their heads in the sand refusing to see possible win-win solutions.

kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions, Associations & the Constitution

Thank you for admitting that some pols shouldn't be dismissed just because they have finished two terms. All the while I understood that you thought that everyone should be fired after two terms. 

 

So evidently the incumbant may be a better choice at times. So you won't vote for the other guy even though he is a new comer. I guess that fresh blood isn't at the top of your agenda.

 

I wonder why you don't want to give other people the choice to make their choice as well. I don't know what disadvantage that is placing on you to limit the term of your candidate. It's YOUR  objective to limit terms and you would merely be doing what you want everyone to be forced to do.

 

Either you believe in term limits or you do not.

BA Deere
Honored Advisor

Riddle me this, term limiters

How does one prevent a politican in the last year of his last term from giving away the store in order to secure a high paying lobbyist job?  We already seem to have that problem. If we make `em sit on the bench a few yrs, they would count on the public`s short term memory.  It boils down to character matters and if you get stuck with a Harry Reid it`s the God damned voters fault and they get what they deserve.

dagwud
Senior Contributor

Re: Unions, Associations & the Constitution

Don: "Thank you for admitting that some pols shouldn't be dismissed just because they have finished two terms. All the while I understood that you thought that everyone should be fired after two terms." 

 

 

I can't type any slower but I'll try again to clarify for you.  I simply believe that term limits would be good for the country not for any particular party or candidate at a particular time.  I don't favor term limits simply as a way to get rid of Congressmen or women I don't like.  I favor term limits because I am convinced it would help limit some of the corruption, bribes and influence peddling by special interest groups.   I does not take a genius to figure it out.  Now a large corp. or wealthy individual can use their enormous resources to buy the vote of a candidate and keep them in their pocket for 20, 30 even 40 years while they stay in office.  Look at some of the biggest crooks we have had in Congress recently, DeLay, Stevens, Cunningham, Rangel and you will notice they are always members who have been in Congress for many years.  It only makes sense for special interest to target these grey beards as they hold more influence and chair more important committees.

 

 

So yes I believe very much that term limits would be good for the country but do not vote against all incumbents since term limits are not the law just as you believe we should all pay more taxes but since the law does not currently dictate it you decide to take tax exemptions available to you to help lower your tax liability.  I wonder if you also believe in paying higher taxes for the good of the country or not?

 

 

I've given my reasons for supporting term limits now I'm curious what are your reasons for being against them.  I don't buy the line that we need to keep re-electing these same Congressmen because they are more "experienced."

In the last presidential election we elected a man with very little political leadership experience and that does not seem to bother many folks that are against term limits.

 

 

I'm still curious Don how you and others feel about having term limits for your president.   Would you have wanted Reagan serving four terms if that was the will of the people?