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kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

They have no problem getting rid of pediphiles. It's called the courts and the justice system. Theu don't need to be fired if they are imprisoned. Do you know any convicted pediphiles that are still teaching school? Non catholic I mean.

kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

Perhaps you are making the wrong assumptions. People are expected to be fired without adequate evidence. It is the unions job to protect workers. That is who they work for. Unions do not have to be persuaded  to dismiss someone. If you have evidence the courts will do it for you. However don't make stuff up or try to remove someone for hearsay evidence. It takes more than that. And if you cannot prove guilt you are simply stuck.

 

 Aniother consideration is the administration being too close and too friendly with specific individuals and many times inept teachers are kept because they are close friends with administrations. How many inept people are kept on the job because of the relationship with their bosses. And that is not just schools but all aspects of society.

kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

Has management tried to fire the controller and what are the reasons for dismissal. That is very important in that I would expect them to have a serious infraction or reckless behavior as cause for dismissal. I'm not sure error is grounds for dismissal or is everyone fired for making a mistake? How about Pilot error? Are they dismissed or are they all dead?

 

No you would have to ask the question because you have decided that he should be terminated without making an in depth research into the cause of the accident. Oh he is a union man and made a mistake so fire the **bleep**! That won't cut it dag.

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

Funny you mentioned teachers.

Now, I am sure this is the exception, and not the rule, but in my opinion, just one case of it, is too many:

 

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/31554

 

 

-snip-

 

In 1997 a Brooklyn teacher was accused of attempting to molest a sixth-grade girl at PS 138. As it happened, he admitted the behavior, but no criminal charges were filed when all was said and done. Still one would think the fact that he inappropriately fondled a teen should be enough to get him fired from his teaching position. But then again, in New York you can’t even fire a child molester if he happens to be a teachers union member.

Thanks to the fact that it is nearly impossible to fire a teacher, this lowlife has been drawing his almost $100,000-a-year salary to do nothing. You heard that right, to do nothing.

You see, even as the union agrees that this pedophile isn’t fit for a classroom, the union still won’t agree to his being fired. So, teacher Roland Pierre sits in a “rubber room” five days a week and does nothing and he’s paid $97,101yearly to do so. And that doesn’t include benefits.

 

 

 

 

-snip-

 

 

Often it is so hard to fire these people that some of the most outrageous cases of misconduct never sees justice done and teachers fired. Another New York teacher, for instance, actually impregnated a 16-year-old student and a few years later molested two 12-year-olds yet the state still found it impossible to fire him.

 

 

-end quotes-

 

Now, in my opinion, that is a case of the union going too far.

 

 

If you want other instances of this, there are more, if you really want to read about them.

 

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-teachers3-2009may03,0,679507.story

 

 

The eighth-grade boy held out his wrists for teacher Carlos Polanco to see.
He had just explained to Polanco and his history classmates at Virgil Middle School in Koreatown why he had been absent: He had been in the hospital after an attempt at suicide.
Polanco looked at the cuts and said they "were weak," according to witness accounts in documents filed with the state. "Carve deeper next time," he was said to have told the boy.
"Look," Polanco allegedly said, "you can't even kill yourself."
The boy's classmates joined in, with one advising how to cut a main artery, according to the witnesses.
"See," Polanco was quoted as saying, "even he knows how to commit suicide better than you."
The Los Angeles school board, citing Polanco's poor judgment, voted to fire him.
But Polanco, who contended that he had been misunderstood, kept his job

 

-snip-

 

The Times reviewed every case on record in the last 15 years in which a tenured employee was fired by a California school district and formally contested the decision before a review commission: 159 in all (not including about two dozen in which the records were destroyed). The newspaper also examined court and school district records and interviewed scores of people, including principals, teachers, union officials, district administrators, parents and students.
Among the findings:
* Building a case for dismissal is so time-consuming, costly and draining for principals and administrators that many say they don't make the effort except in the most egregious cases. The vast majority of firings stem from blatant misconduct, including sexual abuse, other immoral or illegal behavior, insubordination or repeated violation of rules such as showing up on time.
* Although districts generally press ahead with only the strongest cases, even these get knocked down more than a third of the time by the specially convened review panels, which have the discretion to restore teachers' jobs even when grounds for dismissal are proved.
* Jettisoning a teacher solely because he or she can't teach is rare. In 80% of the dismissals that were upheld, classroom performance was not even a factor.
When teaching is at issue, years of effort -- and thousands of dollars -- sometimes go into rehabilitating the teacher as students suffer. Over the three years before he was fired, one struggling math teacher in Stockton was observed 13 times by school officials, failed three year-end evaluations, was offered a more desirable assignment and joined a mentoring program as most of his ninth-grade students flunked his courses.

 

-snip-

 

"We as administrators, knowing how difficult it is, tend to make excuses for the employee, and I think in some cases, accept mediocrity," said L.A. Unified Supt. Ramon C. Cortines.
Strapped districts are forced to keep tenured staffers they deem unworthy even as they must consider layoffs for less-experienced teachers, without regard to their talents.
"It's really disheartening," said Dr. Mitchell Wong, president of Act4Education, a group of parents trying to improve school performance in West Los Angeles. "What message does it send to the students, to the community and to the teachers who are doing their job?"
Kathleen Collins, associate general counsel for L.A. Unified, explained it this way: "Kids don't have a union."
Teachers have won strong job protections over the years, the legacy of labor battles in the early 20th century

 

 

-snip-

 

The district wanted to fire a high school teacher who kept a stash of pornography, marijuana and vials with cocaine residue at school, but a commission balked, suggesting that firing was too harsh. L.A. Unified officials were also unsuccessful in firing a male middle school teacher spotted lying on top of a female colleague in the metal shop, saying the district did not prove that the two were having sex.

-snip-

 

The prospect of union grievances, and a protracted battle against labor representatives and attorneys, makes the endeavor even less appealing.
Joseph Walker, a former principal of Grant High School in Van Nuys, was sued by a special education teacher whom he tried to dismiss for alleged repeated sexual harassment. A civil jury sided with Walker -- but the review commission decided the teacher shouldn't be fired. The case, now in the courts, has dragged on seven years.
Confronting uphill battles like this, Walker said: "You're not going to fire someone who's not doing their job. And if you have someone who's done something really egregious, there's only a 50-50 chance that you can fire them."
Walker is now principal of Discovery Charter Preparatory Academy in Pacoima, where he said he had fired three teachers so far this year. None were fired during his three years as head of Grant. The difference: His school's teachers are not unionized and can be fired at will.

 

 

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

In 1997 a Brooklyn teacher was accused of attempting to molest a sixth-grade girl at PS 138. As it happened, he admitted the behavior

 

-snip-

 

one would think the fact that he inappropriately fondled a teen should be enough to get him fired from his teaching position. But then again, in New York you can’t even fire a child molester if he happens to be a teachers union member.

Thanks to the fact that it is nearly impossible to fire a teacher, this lowlife has been drawing his almost $100,000-a-year salary to do nothing. You heard that right, to do nothing.

You see, even as the union agrees that this pedophile isn’t fit for a classroom, the union still won’t agree to his being fired. So, teacher Roland Pierre sits in a “rubber room” five days a week and does nothing and he’s paid $97,101yearly to do so. And that doesn’t include benefits.

 

How about this case, where the guy admitted to it?
Is that adequate evidence?

 

 

 

 

kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

NO CRIMINAL CHARGES WERE FILED. That statement should be enough to confirm the evidence was lacking. You want to fire someone because he is assumed by some to be guilty but no enough proof to put him away.

 

I'm somewhat sure you would object to being tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

 

So you want to fire him but you cnnot prove due cause. You want union to dump  him and  you haven't produced a reason to do so other than your opinion or someone else's opinion.

 

I can only conclude that you think someone should not have the protections of the law and should be punished with no concern for his basic legal rights.

kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

It's simple enough for authorities to bring charges and convict a guilty man if they have evidence. A union has no power to kepp a guilty man out of prison. None!

 

Just because you would convict and punish a man without a hearing does not mean he is not entitled to due process.

 

BTW I just may be able to think of dozens of people that were not guilty and weren't fired even without a union.

r3020
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

Isn't it funny how the lamestream media never reports on any of this is the public schools? Looks like the public schools have more cases than do Catholic schools plus the state continues to pay the teachers. Have the public schools done anything to help pay restitution to these victims?

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

 

In 1997 a Brooklyn teacher was accused of attempting to molest a sixth-grade girl at PS 138. As it happened, he admitted the behavior, but no criminal charges were filed when all was said and done. Still one would think the fact that he inappropriately fondled a teen should be enough to get him fired from his teaching position. But then again, in New York you can’t even fire a child molester if he happens to be a teachers union member.

Thanks to the fact that it is nearly impossible to fire a teacher, this lowlife has been drawing his almost $100,000-a-year salary to do nothing. You heard that right, to do nothing.

You see, even as the union agrees that this pedophile isn’t fit for a classroom, the union still won’t agree to his being fired. So, teacher Roland Pierre sits in a “rubber room” five days a week and does nothing and he’s paid $97,101yearly to do so. And that doesn’t include benefits.

 

 

Nope, absolutely no evidence he did any wrongdoing at all.