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kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

If you recall Richard Nixon was pardoned for his crimes during his administration which for all purposes prevented any further prosecution.

 

GW Bush hasn't been convicted of anything and I don't think he was fired or punished for anything. If we were to fire him or impeach him somebody was going to have to produce evidence of guilt.

 

As in the case of the air traffic controller, nobody has proven that it was a willful act by a public employee. It really doesn't matter what you think or I think. Evidently the FAA made the decision for us. You want to blame the union for that and I don't.

kraft-t
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

Who made the decision to continue his pay and why? Someone decided that he still merited his pay. There needs to be a reason for that.

 

Now are you giving us the whole story or do you have selective memory of that? Or are you merely repeating some anti union rhetoric that flies around the internet?

Red Steele
Veteran Advisor

Great Post, Dag

Thought maybe you would bring OJ Simpson into it, too....but that would be overkill. Maybe Don will be quiet for a while now, and stick to the ladies aid meetings.

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?


@kraft-t wrote:

Who made the decision to continue his pay and why?

 

It was not a 'him', it was a female teacher, which you would have known, had you actually read the link.

 

 Someone decided that he still merited his pay. There needs to be a reason for that.

 

Its actually pretty simple to figure out, if one was to actually 'click' on the 'link' provided, instead of just arguing.

The reason the teacher is still drawing pay, is because in that district, a union teacher, with tenure, cannot be fired, or have their wages cut without an arbitration meeting.  There can be no arbitration meeting, while there is a criminal investigation going on.  Even after conviction, if the teacher files an immediate appeal, there will be no arbitration, until after the appeal is heard.  So to answer your question, NO ONE has decided that this teacher merits any pay (unless maybe you) it is just that the rules that are in place, make it impossible for them to lose their pay, even while in prison, as long as there is some sort of court proceedings going on.  Can't blame the teacher, file an appeal for a few thousand bucks, which will probably take a year or more to be heard, and draw full salary and benefits while in jail, as it is all going on. 
I ask you this, WHO argued for rules such as these? 
Was it the school district, or the union?
I wonder.

 

Now are you giving us the whole story or do you have selective memory of that? Or are you merely repeating some anti union rhetoric that flies around the internet?

 

I'm posting FACT.  Most of the rhetoric I am reading, is coming from you.

 

Oh, and here is the story.  The original link didn't come up, so I'm using a different one, but the story is the same.


 

MONTGOMERY, Ala. (AP) - The Alabama State Department of Education has taken the first step in trying to revoke the certification of a convicted teacher who continues to draw her salary while in federal prison.

Department spokesman Michael Sibley said former Washington County teacher Charlene Schmitz took part in the revocation hearing July 31 via teleconference.

She is serving a 10-year term in a federal prison in Tallahassee, Fla., following a February 2008 conviction of enticing a 14-year-old boy for sex, and still faces state charges.

She's still getting paid under Alabama's teacher tenure law because a guaranteed arbitration hearing has been put on indefinite hold while she appeals her conviction.

 

http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=10866903

 

 

Here's another:

Former teacher Charlene Schmitz is behind bars in a federal detention center in Tallahassee, Florida, serving 10 years for using texts and instant messages to seduce a 14-year-old student.

She has been fired from her job as a reading teacher at the high school in Leroy, Alabama.

But she is still collecting a paycheck.

Schmitz is appealing her federal conviction -- and her firing. State charges filed in connection with the case are pending. Under the law in Alabama, she is still entitled to her $51,000-a-year salary while she appeals her firing

 

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/justice/alabama.teacher.sex.salary_1_employment-appeal-reading-te...

 

According to school board attorney Martin Pierson, the fight is far from over when the federal case is settled. Charges are pending at the state level. That could mean another trial and the likelihood of more appeals.

The criminal appeals could delay the employment appeal for years.

Washington County School District Superintendent Tim Savage says that because the board must now pay both Schmitz and her replacement, the schools and the students are the poorer for it.

 

 

There you go, is that plain enough English for you.

Of course, the fact that the school board has to pay a teacher that is sitting in jail, as well as her replacement, probably doesn't bother you much either, as it is only taxpayer money going down the tubes.

 

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?


@kraft-t wrote:

If you recall Richard Nixon was pardoned for his crimes during his administration which for all purposes prevented any further prosecution.

 

GW Bush hasn't been convicted of anything and I don't think he was fired or punished for anything. If we were to fire him or impeach him somebody was going to have to produce evidence of guilt.

 

As in the case of the air traffic controller, nobody has proven that it was a willful act by a public employee. It really doesn't matter what you think or I think. Evidently the FAA made the decision for us. You want to blame the union for that and I don't.


 

So, what you are saying, if an air traffic flight controller causes planes to be put in danger willfully, he should be fired, but if he does it just because he is inept, he should not be?
It would seem to me, that if a plane crashed, the victims would be just as dead, whether it was done on purpose, or not.

 

bruce MN
Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

Your frustration with all of this is well noted and surely understandable.  But all through your arguments here you seem to be making the caase for summary justice to be applied.  At least in regard to these cases.  Which is scary coming from a level headed and generally balanced approach person.

 

It makes me fear that there is more support for suspending process among people who would normally be considere to be of the moderate variety than I would have thought there might be.

r3020
Senior Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?


@bruce MN wrote:

Your frustration with all of this is well noted and surely understandable.  But all through your arguments here you seem to be making the caase for summary justice to be applied.  At least in regard to these cases.  Which is scary coming from a level headed and generally balanced approach person.

 

It makes me fear that there is more support for suspending process among people who would normally be considere to be of the moderate variety than I would have thought there might be.


What he is doing is pointing out why public sector unions are on a path of self destruction. They [the union] are paid by the public but when they put the public in danger there is no recourse. The public is expected to keep on paying them and if they [the public] complain they are accused of union hating.

bruce MN
Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

First thing I thought was "case in pointt' but then I remembered what I had said at the end.  No qualifications.

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

I don't understand your argument about 'summary judgement'.

The teacher has been convicted, and sentanced to jail, yet continues to recieve her regular pay and benefits.

The case is not 'pending', she has been found guilty, only her APPEAL is pending. 

Also, according to the 'arbitration' rule, even if her conviction in Federal court is upheld, and the final ruling is that she is guilty (of having sex with a 14 year old student), and the State decides to prosecute her on separate State charges, guess what?

She STILL gets to draw her paycheck, until all State criminal proceeedings grind to a halt, and all appeals are exhausted.  It's right there in the link I posted. 

Now, maybe I have the story wrong, and I encourage anyone who can prove me wrong to straighten me out, but so far, all I get is Kraft-t stating that just because someone is in Federal Prison, they somehow haven't been charged with, or convicted of a crime.

 

Here, let me clarify, just in case I haven't made it clear enough already:

 

From yet another source :  http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2008/feb/15/washington_county_teacher_found_guilty-ar-2140505/

 

A Federal jury found 54-year-old Charlene Schmitz guilty on two counts of using a computer to entice a child today (Thursday).

The jury came to a unanimous decision in two hours. "You have to respect the jury verdicts at anytime, but anytime you don't prevail it's disappointing, "said Schmitz' attorney Donald Briskman."We think that this verdict is one step in making parent's feel safe to bring their children to school. And we believe it will bring a measure of justice and a measure of healing to a little boy and his family, "Said Maria Murphy, one of the attornies for the teenage boy.

Schmitz who is an English teacher at Leroy Middle School in Washington County was arrested last June after the mother of a 14-year-old boy gave police dozens of explicit e-mails she claimed Schmitz sent her son. Schmitz has been on paid administrative leave since her arrest. Schmitz' 14-year-old daughter Tanya Thomas testified in the trial. She told the jury she posed as her mother and sent the messages to the teenage boy herself. "She testified truthfully to what her role was and unfortunately the jury did not accept it, "Said Briskman. "You had to decide whether, the mother did it or the child did it and I think the jury's verdict answers that question, "Said Murphy.

Charlene Schmitz is scheduled to be sentenced in Federal Court May 8th at ten o'clock in the morning. The U.S. Attorney's office says Schmitz faces ten years to life in prison.

 

 

Now, google 'teacher charlene schmitz' and one of the first links that pops up says this:

 

(CNN) -- Former teacher Charlene Schmitz is behind bars in a federal detention center in Tallahassee, Florida, serving 10 years for using texts and instant messages to seduce a 14-year-old student. Charlene Schmitz makes $51,000 a year, even though she has been fired and is in prison.
Charlene Schmitz makes $51,000 a year, even though she has been fired and is in prison.
She has been fired from her job as a reading teacher at the high school in Leroy, Alabama.
But she is still collecting a paycheck.
Schmitz is appealing her federal conviction -- and her firing. State charges filed in connection with the case are pending. Under the law in Alabama, she is still entitled to her $51,000-a-year salary while she appeals her firing.
School officials are not happy that they now have to pay both Schmitz and her replacement. But her attorney says they must obey the law.
On Valentine's Day 2008, a jury found Schmitz guilty of two federal charges of enticing a child

The above from this source:  http://askville.amazon.com/jury-find-Charlene-Schmitz-guilty-federal-charges/AnswerViewer.do?request...

 

 

To me, a unanimous jury decision in two hours signifies a pretty clear-cut case.  Not to sound like a smart alec, but just how many years after a criminal conviction of enticing a student to have sex, should a teacher continue to get paid? 

 

Do you know what's REALLY scary?  When Kraft-t challenged me to find a teacher drawing pay after a criminal conviction, I thought I'd maybe find one or two isolated cases, but there are hundreds, if not thousands.  Do a google search for teachers criminal convictions, and see how many hits you get, for teachers who are still teaching, or at least still getting pay and benefits, after recieving criminal convictions.  Granted, some of the 'convictions' are pretty tame, but some include raping a student, sex with a minor, manslaughter, pornography charges, etc.  Like I said, I am sure it is the exception, and not the rule, but there are WAY too many exceptions, in my opinion, especially when the safety of children is involved.

Nebrfarmr
Veteran Advisor

Re: Unions cost lives?

I was responding to Kraft-t.  I said that I knew of instances, where a teacher was in convicted of having sex with a student, and was still drawing pay, years later.  He challenged the fact that the teacher was actually convicted.  I was giving irrefutable proof.

 

I want to be fair, though.  If you know of an instance where a teacher was 'wrongfully' fired, I'll stand up for their rights, as well.

 

I think the government, and criminal justice system should be like the referee at a football game.  They should be sure that the rules are followed, and penalize those who break the rules, and/or harm others intentionally.  Like any 'ref', occasional bad calls are made.  I'm just pointing a few out.

However, it seems that some people don't seem to care about 'bad calls', as long as it is the 'other' team that gets the penalty.

I'm a Husker fan (as are most Nebraskans), and I want them to win, but I want them to win fair and square, not because they had the refs in their pockets, or the rules bent to their favor.