Fertilizer Question

[Shaggy98]

I've got a question for all my A.com buddies. If we work hard for a few years to get our ground balanced with N, P, and K as well as all the essential micro's, why is starter or popup necessary, or is it necessary? If we get our soils analyzed each year and get good feedback on fertilizer requirements, why can't we apply all of it preplant or even split apply some N in season? I am from an area that leaching is a very minimal concern. If the topsoil we are planting into is reach in nutrients, how much weight do starters actually bring to the table?

[Blacksandfarmer]

Shaggy, since phosphorus is nearly immobile guys like the idea of getting available phosphate close to a young corn plant, especially when its cold and damp. If you are in an area that is normally warm at planting time and you do a little tillage to work the fertilizer down some, you probably wouldn't have to use starter fertilizer. If you no-till corn, starter is nearly a must.... At least here in the upper mid-west.

[Shaggy98]

OK, I'll buy that BSF. I'm being told P will move approximately 1/4" to 1/2" annually in our soil depending on climate of course. Granted, these are very small movements, but over the course of 10 to 15 years or even longer on soils that haven't been depleted, this results to be several inches of overall movement. If we apply just a few extra pounds that aren't needed by the existing crop, won't this amount continue to be banked and available for future crops? This is what I was referring to as getting our soils built up and balanced.

The reason I'm asking, is I've never used either starter or popup on crops I've seeded myself. I needed to get my wheat custom drilled last fall because I don't have a no-till drill, and we put on a blend of 40#N, 25#P, and some additional micro's. The only reason I agreed to this was to eliminate 1 trip across the field. The same guy that drilled my wheat always applies some starter with his planter as well, and talking to him about his crops over the last few years, his yields aren't any better than mine on the overall scheme. If I don't see an additional yield boost, why would I invest the extra time involved when I am seeding?

[buckfarmer]

The first time I heard anyone talk about pop-up this very question was asked. The answer form someone in the audience was propane. I'm setting there thinking WTF. The famous agronomist's simple answer....yep. He then went on to say using pop-up resulted in the crop maturing something like five to seven days earlier. This may not be a big deal to us small time corn growers but for someone drying several thousand acres it would be. Do need to dry grain after its in the bin in your area Shaggy? If so is your air dry enough that you don't need heat?

[Shaggy98]

No, we let our crops ripen in the field. 0%, and I mean 0% grain drying in my area. Not even the cooperatives have drying facilities anymore.

[buckfarmer]

I like to shell corn at about 18% just to reduce any damage. This means I start when it's about 20%. So some drying is required usually just air unless we are having to many high humidity days.

[farmerguy89]

shaggy, this all goes back to earlier discussions we all had: 1. your in no till. mobility is a problem. nutrient stratifcation can be a problem. if you dont apply fertilizer underground, your yields will decline sharply with time, especially vs conventional.\ 2. your comparing two systems w/ your neighbour with no checks on the system. you cant verify the findings with great certainty. This is anecdotal evidence. if everyone relied on anecdotal evidence, then we would all buy the products on the tv shopping channels.. but then we realize they dont work.. and that ppl will convince themselves of whatever lie they want to believe. 3. scientific data still supports the application of starters in wheat and corn but not in soybeans. the scientific method isnt subject to your personal beliefs on what should and should not be done.

there are problems w/ using anecdotal evidence to support your beliefs, and you and your neighbour will try to support conclusions that are contrary to the scientific data just because you want to believe that you dont need to do it. as for half an inch of fertilizer movement.. thats not going to happen.

anyways, you could write a 12 page essay on why you dont use anecdotes.. and I have done this at the University.. but I am not going to do it here.

[hanktbd]

In my area of central Illinois, probably less than 1 out of 5 farmers use starter. Reason is because optimum planting window is often small and most local research shows no yield gains from using it. Farms with poorer timber soil or sandier soil seem to get more benefit but most of the farms in this area have high fertility and excellent soil structure. Seems like the farms north of us see more benefits from starter also.

[Shaggy98]

What do you mean I have no checks on my neighbors system?  I talk to him almost on a daily basis and we freely share production information.  I don't think he would be dishonest and the results just aren't there.  I am just not completely sold.  I am going to have my agronomist start pulling samples at different depths on a few fields for a few years, I'm not completely sold on the stratification theory either.  Not trying to buck the system or anyone's advice, but I guess the proof will be in the pudding.

[Shaggy98]

2010 I cut 130+ B/A on all my milo acres, every single acre.  My neighbor who placed starter with his seed averaged between 100 & 110 B/A.  That is just one example of why I'm not completely sold.  I just have a gut feeling whenever we have a yield drag, we are all to quick to jump on the fertilizer issue and not address other issues we might have.  Just saying.