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belarus
Senior Contributor

Re: Chipotle and bioterrorism

I don't know where he shops.  Food at the store doesn't taste like food out of our garden or the animals we raise.  I've got a freind on the Woman in Ag facebook group.  Even the industros are in unison on that one.  Meat and veggies at the grocery store don't taste anything like farm fresh meat and produce.  If we disagree with them on that its hard to have a discussion.

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belarus
Senior Contributor

Re: Chipotle and bioterrorism

I'm calling BS on this one.  Chipotle chooses different producers but they follow the same kind of food safety rules.  Are you saying that McDonalds doesn't use fresh lettuce or tomatoes on its hamburgers?

I will have to dig out my 10 fallacies of an arguement.  You are breaking some rules here.  

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smokeyjay
Advisor

Re: Chipotle and bioterrorism

Taste is such a subjective issue, one cannot say one preference is superior over another. That said, breeding and genetic selection, plus nutritional components can influence tast, texture and the like.  But it is wrong to say because it is not "natural" it is bad. Who can define natural and unnatural?  How about organic versus non-organic?  It's all made from carbon based elements. 

 

I prefer vine ripened tomatoes and tree ripened fruit. I prefer whole wheat bread over white bread, but will not refuse it if there is no other choice. I prefer meat that is grain fed prior to finish over grass finished. It's a preference. 

 

The topic at hand is about Chipotle and their poor management practices that got them into trouble. 

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BA Deere
Honored Advisor

Smokey

The difference is the Listeria that Blue Bell Icecream had 3 people died, with Chipotle 50 people were "sickened".   however all company bigwigs ought to take note that the "crime" isn`t what puts you away, it`s the coverup.  Apparently the bigwigs at Blue Bell knew something and weren`t forthcoming enough...and isn`t that usually what happens, to save a company a few are thrown under the bus as a sacrifice to take the heat off the entire company.

 

Being as there were no fatalities in the Chipotle case...and I as far as I know they still haven`t pinned down what Chipotle`s source of the problem was.  Now, if emails or documents are brought forward there was a coverup, then it will be a different story for Chipotle.  I know once they are down they become a easy target, especially after it`s preceived that they advertised themselves as being somehow "more healthful".  But in the perishable food industry, ecoli stuff can happen to anyone.

 

I will admit that I err on the side of the more natural and those that cater to the small farmers.  But if there was something to go after with Chipotle, they have no shortage of enemies that would push it.

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/doj-investigating-blue-bell-creameries-response-to-listeria-contaminatio...

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smokeyjay
Advisor

Re: Smokey

I do not disagree with much of your post. However, though there were deaths with Blue Bell, there are similarities between their management's early response and Chipotle's early response. Both did not take immediate action to find and isolate the source of contamination.

 

Plus, Chipotle's management believed in the infallible notion that natural was inherently safer, which cannot be further from the truth. Milk is pasteurized for a reason. We cook food with heat for a period of time for a reason. These practices are proven to kill pathogens that can sicken or kill us. I love green beans and fresh asparagus fresh from the garden, but prefer to stay healthy while eating it.  We follow general practices of washing fresh produce to cleanse the surface of food intended for consumption because it is well known that simple act minimizes exposure to pathogens. And I suspect there were double the number of consumers that actually got sick than were actually reported. They just didn't connect it with their visit at the place of consumption. 

 

This arrogant refusal to acknowledge basic truth about food safety was systemic from the top. Then, added to that culture of arrogance was the use of the video, "Farmed and Dangerous", using fear as the motivation to drive demand, plus it accused all of traditional agriculture as guilty of poisoning the food supply, in the "evil" pursuit of profit. Think about the irony of that rationale for a minute. 

 

By targeting agriculture as the villain, they set themselves up for whatever happened afterwards, when the news media picked up the story of people getting sick. 

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BA Deere
Honored Advisor

Re: Smokey

I see where you`re coming from, however here is a "happy California cows" commercial

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyNpEqTM9sY 

 

See, the industrial ag side is trying to sell the image that their milk cows are out on pasture in happy wid open spaces...they know that image sells.  But in reality, the milk cows are in a lot and rounded up 3 times a day to be milked and given BST to have competitive production....I`m not commenting on the morality of that production, but that isn`t in their "happy cows" commercial...it is what it is.

 

As far as "raw milk" as I understand it, a farmer can`t legally sell raw milk even if it`s a wink and a nod that it`s "garden fertilizer".  All of our parents, grandparents and all the way back would bring in milk fresh from the cow and they never got sick from raw milk.  I drink pasturized skim milk, because I wouldn`t be used to raw milk and maybe would get sick.  But to have the industrial ag model of dairy I suppose they don`t want a "foodie" getting sick off raw milk thus tainting the entire milk industry`s image.

 

Times I`ve went to a so-called fresh salad bar the smell of chlorine will about knock you out.  They spray that chlorine to keep people from getting sick, but one would think ingesting it would take away from the health bennefits.

 

Here`s a effective Chipotle "back to the start" ad

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMfSGt6rHos 

 

And here is the "Farmed and Dangerous" trailer.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5_D0rdqeAs 

 

I never saw that movie, it looks like a spoof to the foodie audience.  but what a person eats is their choice and if the natural industry can fill that niche, I don`t have a problem with that.  The industrial segment has the money and the market share, they can certainly fight their own battles.

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sw363535
Honored Advisor

Re: Smokey

BA Quote --- "All of our parents, grandparents and all the way back would bring in milk fresh from the cow and they never got sick from raw milk."     I nearly lost an uncle to Brucellosis when his folks bought an infected cow....  He has had health problems from that experience all his live

 

The quote is total bunk......

 

I am not concerned for the indoctrinated mothers let her get all the sick she can buy, but inocent kids are fed at the same trough.... It is hogwash, pardon the pun, to claim that modern agriculture is not good for the food supply or that going back to 1920's agriculture is good for the public..... It is the same mentality that thinks that vaccinations are bad.. And an MD doesn't know or care.

It is all ignorance.  lack of education, the dumbing down of history and food safety.  I am sure a few courses in home economics or biology would be demeaning to parents...

It's important enough that we should be expecting credentials from those making food safety claims...and data greater than "the cow i butchered myself tasted better than the one I sold."  Sorry but I like that usda inspection sticker. 

Anyone who is buying direct from the producer better not be skipping the food safety procedures required by law or the procedure that kills pathogens.  That  includes parents...and if they are risking their families safety there should be consequences when their children become sick.  They are responsible no matter how many others they have been taught to blame.

BA Deere
Honored Advisor

Re: Smokey

SW, just because I never heard it, doesn`t mean it`s never happened....obviously.  You could get Brucellosis from a house cat, I think that`s why pregnant women shouldn`t be around cats especially.  My Wife grew up on a dairy farm and they always drank fresh unpasturized milk and cream, went I was a kid, we had a milk cow named "Hendrika" ..never had an ounce of trouble with hermilk and like I said my folks grew up on fresh milk, it was just not on their radar.

 

You should never eat the milk or meat from a sick animal and I have nothing against pasturization as long as the technology is here.  But, I am also for freedom, thoise that want to drink raw milk, that is their right and no different than those centuries before have done.  Actually raw milk in this day and age should be safer as there`s more sanitary milking conditions and more bruc testing that can be done. 

 

Danged amazing how our forebearers survived before the nanny state.

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sw363535
Honored Advisor

Re: Smokey

I am with you on the nanny state.  It comes with a population that is less educated and more willing to blame others through litigation.

 

The thing you are leaving out is the knowledge and wisdom your parents had in dealing with food safety.....  Knowledge that is not present in most homes today.

 

BA, you and I can really get this topic spinning if we start discussion why a family,,, lets change that term since families barely exist these days, an adult doesn't have basic food safety knowledge.  Or the women's revocation of these responsibilities in the family.  

 

But there is an argument out there that occasionally sounds pretty good.  It says that government fills a void in responsibility that citizens create.  For example, if we are not going to be responsible parents or good educators, the government will try to fill the void.

If we are spending more time on our smart phone than with our kids, we get nanny government.  I would like to blame government for excessive presence in economic activity and especially our education system, but I think that is what we ask for.

 

Way too many people are getting their education from television or a u tube video Produced without credentials to educate.

 

 

 

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smokeyjay
Advisor

Re: Smokey

I have submitted this post at least five times, but I keep getting an authentication failure response. 

 

Here goes, again.

 

i have seen the videos.  "Farmed and Dangerous " is based on supposition, innuendo, inaccurate and downright false information. Chipotle deserves all the backlash it receives. 

 

The California cows, or happy cows on the other commercials, though they may not portray every dairy's reality, it is not an inaccurate portrayal. Some large dairies are mostly concrete, but many are housed on dry lots, with shade for hotter days. How do you determine if they are happy?  

 

Healthy cows are the result of management, not their housing environment.  

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