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smokeyjay
Advisor

Re: Chipotle and bioterrorism

No, I am saying the fallacy is the perceived difference between "natural" food and regularly produced food. And it is gravely apparent Chipotle is NOT following safety rules. When is the last time McDonalds found 50 sick customers, let alone a half dozen at one time?

 

Pure BS?  Guess again.

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BA Deere
Honored Advisor

Re: Smokey

Smokey, most of the times that I post a link, i have to click on "options" and "edit" the post to make the links work.  I don`t know why it does it but just "editing" the post fixes the link.

 

I`m probably stepping on alot of toes by taking the side that I do because i`m sure many have millions invested in the "industrial" side and that isn`t easy to walk back from.  However, i think both the natural and industral sides can coexist.  The natural side has to tout the bennefits of their production methods or what would the extra premium be justified?  The idustrial side has to protect their turf or the increased demanded regulations would put them out of business.

 

Each hog site has the waste disposal of a small city, the antibiotic use has dramatically changed at the flip of the calander and undercover workers are often releasing a "abuse tape" that makes the news.  It`s a war out there, but it can make the entire food system better and safer if both sides could come together and make some sort of peace. 

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smokeyjay
Advisor

Re: Smokey

The options icon has not been any help for me. My PC cannot be used to respond. Believe me, I tried many times. I am using an IPad now. 

 

I have no argument with anyone promoting any form of production. There is room for all types of agriculture. Most farmers I know have no desire to pick fights. However, Chipotle engaged the fight with their attitude and behavior, and ag groups are not letting it slide anymore.  Demand for food increases daily as populations grow, so there is plenty of room for all. That said, the majority of food buyers will buy according to cost.  That's a substantiated fact. 

 

Undercover workers place themselves at great risk, financially and legally, when caught. These videos can be doctored to tell any story they want. 

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BA Deere
Honored Advisor

Re: Smokey

SW I`m ready to go on a Oliver Douglass Green Acres rant Smiley Very Happy   Okay, 30+ yrs ago there were 500 families in the county making a living farrow to finish hogs and taking them to a local buying station.  The town would support a school, hardware stores, grocery stores, department stores, cafes.  Now in the case of hogs (what I know best) those 500 families hog farmers that made a living are gone and in their place are 5 families that got rich raising even more hogs than the entire county 30 yrs ago. 

 

That money drained out of the life blood of the community, the kids are gone schools consolidated having +1 hour bus rides for some, the communities boarded up store fronts. Yes, the Bigshot method of raising hogs is more "efficient" and "money abhors a vacuum" I`ve heard all the indoctrination, believe me.  But....what is "efficiency" ...I thought +30 yrs ago 500 families making a living out their dream, playground full of kids, a movie theater, bustling cafes, ringing of local cash registers.  But yeah, they didn`t keep 10.53 pigs per litter...i guess they were obsolete and needed to be purged off the landscape.

 

now the "social costs" of this new "efficiency" mom has to work more off the farm, dad maybe doesn`t even find fulltime work and instead of actually paying taxes, they get money back from earned income credits.   The parents don`t have the time to be parents, mom doesn`t cook much at  home and the hardware store that used to hire kids after school is now boarded up.

 

then I see ads on tv about how dangerous smoking is and no one can smoke at work, restaurants don`t allow it....yet!  lo and behold the politicians allow smoking in casinos....how about that?  Colorado legalized marijuana.  ..But the dairy farmer that sells a quart of raw milk is prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  as I`ve said millions of farmers and their kids drank raw milk for centuries, now it`s against the law...but you can buy and smoke dope in Colorado. 

 

Now, I see where some companies are filling a niche market and some farmers can stay on the land by producing the same food that grandma and grandpa lived into their 90`s eating....heck yes, I will advocate for those responsible companies!

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sw363535
Honored Advisor

Re: Smokey

I understand BA, but take a clear, rational look at what that company is promoting and ask yourself, Does it sound workable, logical, and safe? or is it just another corporate advertising campaign cashing in on American Nastalgia?  It wouldn't be the first or the last.

 

you described hogs,(our past), look at poultry, dairy, ......... well it............ let's turn it around and name a segment of ag that is not changing to vertical integration and economically forced to larger and larger production by fewer and fewer.  It has been going on for 50 years and is sprinting to a finish with the help of technology.  That is your point.  ------ unfortunately, we are not going back.  If anything Chipotle's inability to pinpoint the problem emphasizes that we are not going back.

But here is what I am basing my prediction on.  When pork went to pennies on the pound and the corps pushed us all out, pork became a three company oligopoly controling supply,,, did the price of pork go up?  Supply get short? Do only the rich buy it?  

No, it is a quality and consistant supply, reasonably and consistantly priced, and continues to be a very affordable source of protein.

In fact I can't think of an ag product that has gone through vertical integration that has not improved supply consistancy and become even more affordable...  eggs, dairy, pork, poultry, veggies, fruit, sugar.  Most every part of food and ag production is well into the process.  I cant think of a food safety issue that hasn't improved in the process.

I think we will do what surviving farmers have always done, adapt and look for our place in the future.  No one has ever been able to bring back the past.  At least not without terrible diseaster for all.

Even those muslim workers for cargill......they can demand all they want but they are going to be replaced by automation anyway.

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belarus
Senior Contributor

Re: Chipotle and bioterrorism

I'm not dragging McDonalds through the mud.  They have a good food safety track record.  So does Chipotle.  Neither are perfect.  Do you realize McDonalds owned Chipotle at one time?   Its not possible to have no risk if you are dealing with raw meats and poultry and fresh produce.  You are making some wild assumptions on how inspection of fruit, veggies, meat, and poultry work.

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belarus
Senior Contributor

Re: Smokey

These big corporations are just pitting farmers against farmers globally now. And pork and chicken in the stores is getting closer to cardboard that would be good for a marinate.  I'll use the NPB and NPPC annual contest for pork quality as an example.  No commercial operations in these 30 "farms" that control 75% of the pigs use these kind of pigs that win these contests.  The same as veggies.  They grow tomatoes in our area.  They dump them on a semi four foot high to haul them to the processor.  Now are you really telling me that an unboxed tomato that can be dumped four foot high and hauled down the road is a good tomato?  I'm sure the yeilds are phenomenal.  I'm sure there are some baseballs that aren't as hard and have as much flavor.  Some people, including Chipotle customers, think your idea of utopia is not progress.  I applaud them for attempting to make the marketplace work.   You are muddying the water talking about raw milk, affordable sources of protein (when we spend less than any country in the world on food), food safety isn't a problem for the bigs (cause that is pure hog wash and you know it!).  Can you say turkey, ground beef, ice cream, spinach, tomato, lettuce, blah, blah, blah, etc.  Food borne illness are actually going down in the US on everything except salmonella.  But that is as much a culture of chemicals in the processing environment.  USDA's paper on antimicrobials allowed is now 78 pages.  FSIS directive 7120.  The long term health consequences of this industrialization is something we should all be mindful of.  Lots of health problems can be attributed to our choice as a society of a food system.  Chipotle is a step in the right direction.  Lower carbs, higher protein (not just from meat), veggies are a good choice for everyone.  

 Hardnox's comments are kind of scary.  There is no competition left in this industry.  Ultimately the consumer will get screwed.  Kind of hard to screw the farmers.  There aren't many of them left on the livestock side.  

 

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belarus
Senior Contributor

Re: Chipotle and bioterrorism

How you been?  I haven't been on this site in years.  It hasn't changed a lot.  lol

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smokeyjay
Advisor

Re: Chipotle and bioterrorism

it matters little who used to own whom. Nobody on this thread ever said there is no risk.  Chipotle failed to manage its risk, end of story. 

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smokeyjay
Advisor

Re: Smokey

Agree, SW.  Well said. 

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