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Honored Advisor

Re: Estate Taxes..Uff Da

Kraft,

We all have concerns for the 'working folks", we are them.  But if we carry out your class envy logic we could just take away personal property rights of assets over 1500 square feet in size to achieve some sort of justice.  

 

you have got to be kidding when you say inflation is the friend of the property owner.  What a hoax.  An acre is an acre is an acre.  Why should an owner have a portion of their property taken away because the value of the dollar declined.  They do not own dollars, they own acres.  

I will never fall for the "inflation is good for us" line.  The value of the dollar, and the dollar itself, is the product of the US government,  and it's value is a daily indicator of the US government's credit rating.   At best we get to posses a few US dollars in exchange for something.  They are just an exchange mediun controlled by government.  The worker is not working for dollars, but for the asset he hopes to be able to buy with those dollars--education, land, home, wheels, etc.  Inflation is not his friend either.  

Lets call property taxes what they are, a class envy tax,  or a robin hood tax targeted at agriculture and family farming.  We have been applauding our historic family farm for show, but we will take a portion away if its value goes up.  ----If we keep using the class envy tool we are going to loose the ability to change classes.  And when there is only one class-------we won't be able to pay a wage, or earn one, big enough to afford the bar stool rent.

 

An estate tax is nothing more than the theft of personal property and inflation is the gun in the hands of the robber, and is in full control of the robber.  Capital gains are not a reflection of an increased value in an asset,  they are a measure of the decreased value of the dollar.  

 

 

 

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Senior Advisor

Re: Estate Taxes..Uff Da

Why would you claim my class envy logic? I don't envy you your class or anyone else. That is merely a phase to demonize someone with an opposing view point.

 

So you think that Warren Buffets millions that have grown into billions won't buy what they bought when they were still millions. Or My farm that I paid $900 per acre won't buy any more  at $8000 per acre in shy of 10 years.

 

The total dollars 10 years ago would buy 3 cadillacs. The farms value today would buy more than 10 cadillacs and you don't I have gained anything.

 

If indeed inflation is a product of the devalued dollar, then working folks have suffered a great reduction in pay scale and no reduction it taxes. So It you would favor no taxes for working folks as well.

 

Real estate taxes are a voluntary tax. You knew that they existed when you bought your real estate. If you don't want to pay them don't own real estate.

 

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Honored Advisor

Re: Estate Taxes..Uff Da

To get your cadilacs you will have to, find a buyer, sell the land, pay the capital gains tax on $7100 per acre, and rush to your dealer before the inflation catches up.  It is what a lot of us are doing when we think the dollar is not worth holding.  But the analagy takes you from owning an asset that holds value to one that's life renders it worthless with age.  That is not a good analogy and not something either of us will do.

I call that kind of activity "surfing inflation"---or the "hot potato" dollar.

 

Mr Bruffets assets are exactly that --his assets.  Just because an appraiser changes the dollar value on them, should not allow them to be taken away or confiscated at death.  A property tax(real estate taxes) on his assets on an annual basis to pay for the benefit of roads, schools, etc. is certainly appropriate because his businesses and employees benefit.  And a basis of evaluation is necessary in that case because he obviously gains more benefit from the public improvements than I do.

 

You were not talking about real estate taxes,  the discussion was on ESTATE taxes.  And if you own more than 125 acres at $8000/a in 2013.  The government will want a portion of it on your death.  I think that is theft, and we should not allow anyone to point to Mr Buffet and justify it just because I don't have the number of assets that he has.  That is the class envy issue and it is used to justify the tax often.  I meant nothing personal towards you and am sorry if my thoughts insinuated so.

 

I think Mr. Buffet's level(or class) of asset ownership has an easier avenue to avoid the estate tax.  And I think Farm family's are somewhat "targeted" by the law.  It has been part of the destruction of the family farm and therefore estate planning is a must. 

 

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Senior Advisor

Re: Estate Taxes..Uff Da

An assessor didn't evaluate mr. Buffets assets. The market has. When and only when his assets are transfer to another owner, it should be taxed like all other income. You make the money, you pay the tax. Envy has nothing to do with it.

 

Estate taxes are not theft any more than any other tax the government assesses. And certainly not any more so than the chunch of money I sent in December. Why capital gains or estates are any more sacred than my ordinary income is beyond me. BTW my ordinary income won't buy as much as it would a decade or more either.

 

Farm families are not targeted by the law. Anyone that has amassed a fortune shares the burden of the estate tax. Many farmers have millions of gains that have never been taxed. Seldom does a farm have to be sold to extract estate taxes. Far more often the farm may have to be sold for the division of assets among the heirs. Don't confuse the two. I don't know anyone that has lost a farm to estate taxes.  If you have a 2 million dollar farm and it is taxed at 50% after the first million. then you may have to borrow a half million against a $2 million asset. That should be quite easy with a 75% equity in the asset.

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Honored Advisor

Re: Estate Taxes..Uff Da

An assessor didn't evaluate mr. Buffets assets. The market has. When and only when his assets are transfer to another owner, it should be taxed like all other income. You make the money, you pay the tax. Envy has nothing to do with it.

There is no "market" activity in the transfer of assets in an estate.  An estate transfer is a gift like any other one made before death.  There is no "income" creation at all.  

 

2nd paragraph-----estates are not income and cannot be equated with.  If they were we would not need to create a different category for them.  we would simply tax them as income.-----but they are not--. stop mixing apples & oranges.

 

3rd paragraph--- So absolutely false and misleading that I can see why you would sell ground to buy cadillacs.

 

 

 


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Senior Advisor

Re: Estate Taxes..Uff Da

So call it gift taxes then. You can't pass millions on to your kids without paying taxes.

 

We are not going to solve anything here. We have philosophical differences of which are not going to change. You are suggesting that the haves deserve to make millions in asset growth without paying taxes. I could never agree to that.

 

That is why the tax code is so friendly to investors because the legislation has been bought and paid for by folks that think like you.

 

The third paragraph was not false and misleading. It merely is an example that the buying power of the money invested in farm land a decade ago has far exceeded the inflation rate in capital gains. Which squashes your notion that all of the capital gains are the devaluation of the dollar.

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Honored Advisor

Robin Hood Kraft

Such enlightenment--------you are able to tell exactly where specific federal expenditures come from.  I was under the impression revenues were pooled or at least the IOU's were pooled.  Welfare does that come from the FICA funds(social security & Medicare) also.  How about food stamps, is that not a social expenditure, why do they say it comes from the farm budget.

 

Kraft---there is no justification for taxing the life personal savings of any individual in life or death-----it is just theft by government.  Just like the day my GM stock were stolen.  By a government that stole from the stockholders and gave to the pension funds, called it bankruptcy, yet the company never missed a day of work and can't understand why I don't want to buy their product.  

 

Just because government does it doesn't make it legal or right.  And "Class Envy" is the way they sell it.  And you are obviously a good customer.

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Re: Estate Taxes..Uff Da

That's not a part of the communistic manifesto, as far as I know.  There is a democratic reasoning behind the concept of taxes like this.  The idea is to prevent an excessive accumulation of wealth in concentrations that eventually separates people into class systems, ie, super rich and super poor.  Think back to the days in England and Europe when small kingdom states ruled the countryside.  Everyone else lived on the land, worked as tenant farmers and craftsmen but never owned anything.  Rents accumulated in the accounts of the land owners.  It was impossible to escape poverty.

 

Unfortunately, as time goes by, the democratic system has drifted from a society that has equal opportunity to one where those with the wealth and organization has access to the people's representatives and are able to influence legislation for their benefit.  The increasing gap between the haves and have nots is moving further apart as evidenced by the slowly disappearing middle class.  Most are moving downward, not upwards.  We can't blame the communists on this one.

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Advisor

one word...fraud

If your kids follow your advice, you grandchildren may end up visiting them on weekends in a minimum security prison.  Not reporting a death indicates intent to defraud.  Conviction is pretty much certain, not to mention hang time in prison.

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Honored Advisor

Re: Estate Taxes..Uff Da

yes smoke,

 

What concerns me is the relatively small amount of assets it will take to  be hammered by the new 2013 limits.

 

We have our eyes on the buffets, but the vast majority of the tax paid will be by small business because of the inflation and bubbles.  The big guys will have their Trust funds, etc,will find the loopholes, or for the most part be able to take the hit.  But small business or small farms will be in the firing line with the run up in land values and the high priced grain and livestock.  We could see some who have a hard time being full time farmers(less than 1600 acres in Kansas for--example) catching a pretty heavy estate tax problem when u plug in mineral value, and inventories( equip., livestock, & crops).  Estates don't always go to children-------we have a hard time getting young replacement farmers interested now.  This could take away one of the few incentives left.

 

The middle class as usuall will pay the bulk of this burdon------

 

 

 

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