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Senior Advisor

Re: I don't get that GDP/debt ratio.

What a strong argument. You wouldn't borrow enought to pay the feed bill if you were in debt. Of  course I realize you don't have a feed bill if you are merely the hired hand for a contract hog producer. And you don't think government should borrow money to pay for previously owed obligations.

 

Then you ridicule people that cash in the retirement Iras to satisfy their mortgage debt. Instead you should be lauding and applauding them for doing their best to honor their mortgae contract. Are you suggesting they walk away from the mortgage simply because it is going south on them?

 

It says alot about you if you would walk away from your obligations rather than sacrificing your "retirement savings". Yeah stick someone else with the default and keep your cash for yourself.

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Senior Advisor

Re: I don't get that GDP/debt ratio.

Then you don't own your property either. If you don't pay your taxes the county will auction off yours.

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Highlighted
Contributor

Re: I don't get that GDP/debt ratio.

So how much do we increase revenue?   And we talk about increasing the tax on the rich?  So how much tax is fair?  Who are the rich?  I just counseled a young coupple who paid $ 125,000 in federal income tax last year...they started with nothing, spent 6 to 8 years each in post high school education, paid by themselves, not scholarships.......is this fair?

 

One of the basic problems is that Congress continues to spend...exceeding our revenues.  What incentive is there for Congress to rein in spending?

 

Because I am self-employed I am required to pay se tax as well as income tax.  So, based on my tax bracket, here is what happens when I add an additional dollar of income:

 

28% Income tax

15.3% SE Tax

5% State Tax.

 

Total 48% Tax

 

Is it fair for me to give up 48% of my additional income?  And this isn't counting real estate tax, sales tax, utility tax,etc.  Why should I accept risk, hire additional people and spend money to expand when I lose this much???

 

Even if I max out SE Tax, then I still must pay about 36%

 

It makes me a bit nervous when the people making the push for spending aren't required to pay for some of that spending.  51% of the voters in the last election paid O tax....now, I want everything for free, and I want you to pay for it!!!!

 

We are creating a scenario for class warfare.  When the voters who pay no tax want to force others to pay for their living...that appears to start to be dangerous policy.

 

Nebraska Farmer eloquently detailed some of the use of funds.  Some of this is absolutely disgusting.  Congress is buying votes and burning my money!!!

 

Hey, I would agree for a temporary tax increase....but only if it went too retire debt, and only if Congress agreed to spend only what it took in.  I can't spend anymore than I earn (or borrow unless I have a repayment plan and the ability to repay the debt).  Whyy should the government be different.  When 40 cents of every dollar spent is borrowed its dangerous.

 

What is wrong with a balanced budget??????

 

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Veteran Advisor

Re: I don't get that GDP/debt ratio.

Maybe the Government could dip into the 'retirement savings'.  Oh, wait, it's already gone...

I don't think Kay was talking about borrowing money to pay a feed bill.  That is not a fair assessment, because when you have a feed bill, you have animals to sell. 
What the government is doing, is borrowing more money to pay for the equivilant of cigarettes, beer, and new gold-spoke wheels for the car.

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Honored Advisor

Re: I don't get that GDP/debt ratio.

Some states require a balanced budget by their constitutions. I know local government agencies like the school boards where we have lived are forced to stay within their funding levels, and they have no taxing authority, accepting only what they are given by the county elected legislative body. So, it can be done.

You make an excellent point about that young, high- income couple. The message is " delayed gratification". sixteen years between them, of hard work, sacrifice, and preparation for professions.

This needs to be the mantra of our nation, as well as everycitizen of it. We are all going t have to log some austere years, in order
to restore ourselves to a sound economic footing.

Entitlements have put the reward ahead of the labor - the cart before the horse- for far too long. Our Founding Fathers only granted voting rigths to freeholders...people who actually owned something. Smart. Inch, except for prohibitions due to race and gender...

The principle of having to put something of value at risk by making wrong choices is powerful mojo. People with nothing to lose really don't give a rip if we risk it all....

Whenever the news reports are too grim, Mike and I will say to each other, " If it gets to the point where we can't make it, between what we have worked and saved for, and the fact that we have lived without and know how to survive on very little, then the rest are toast".

Ninety percent of what I hear most people obsessing about " needing" is really just crap that tney " want". Our government is as guilty of this as any entity on this planet. Paint the name of some of thes folks on the handle of a shovel, and set them to digging in a ditch. No one is above the need to support themselves.
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Veteran Advisor

Re: I don't get that GDP/debt ratio.

Creating jobs is one side of the picture...creating lives that require only what those jobs made available can afford to pay is the other side of the flapjack

 

 

That line right there probably is more of what is wrong with this country financially than anything else.


My farming operation isn't that big, and I have time to do the occasional odd job here and there, it gives me a few extra dollars to take the family out somewhere, and gives me a bigger circle of experience than I'd have otherwise.  Anyway, on one of these jobs, there was a several man crew, and it was lunch time.  We all piled in the boss' extended cab pickup and went to get some chow.  We only had a few minutes, so we stopped at a convenience store that has deli sandwiches.   One young guy who lets money run through his fingers like a government bureaucrat (pun intended) asked the boss if he could spot him a few bucks.  Boss said 'as soon as you pay me back from last time'.  So, this kid (at my age anyone under 30 is a 'kid') looks down at what he has - a big sandwich, two beers, and a can of Skoal.  Does a little figuing on his cell-phone calculator, and puts the sandwich back.  It hit me that soon, his generation will be running this country.

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Honored Advisor

Re: I don't get that GDP/debt ratio.

Anywhere that government is funded by ad valorem taxation, ownership is contingent upon paying them, or forfeiting the asset. same is true of my car, Mike's motorcycles, or any other listed property. Yes, they can take out s&@ t if we skip paying taxes.

Lots of our so- called " rights" are similarly abridged or encumberd. Our county has zoning, so we can only do on our land what is permitted in our classification under that code,

Our right to vote requires registration... If you do not register in time, forget casting a ballot on election day. The NC legislature tried
recently to limit that right to people with valid photoidentification.

Want to go one? You have a right to bear arms, but we have to have a " carry permit" to conceal them while carrying, and some places still prohibit them...courthouses, schools, etc. That is a right you can lose if you violate cwrtain laws...try buy a gun ( or vote) if you are a convicted felon. You are still a citizen, but a very chastised one.

Have children? If they are minors of school age in your state, you have to either send them to an accredited school, or otherwise prove - often by meetign minimums ores on standardized tests,administered by the public schools - that their educstion at home is adequate. They can flunk that standard in school, but not at your house.

Got a dog? If you want to keep him, have a rabies tag on his collar. Many places, if he goes off your land, or escapes his leash, he will end up a ward of the county. If you don't buy him back in ten days....

Get my point now? Virtually everything we do is subject to government influence or interference. Fact of life...but, since I am not dumb enough to think I don't have to pay people back, or can snub my nose at taxes, it is not a problem for me.

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Honored Advisor

Re: I don't get that GDP/debt ratio.

That is just his awkward way of trying to insult me further...he knows I am not a " hired hand" for a contract hog grower...I am the owner/ operator of a very large contract growing farm. No, I haven't had a feed bill in over 17 years now...but, I cannot remember how far back before that we stopped borrowing any erarong money...having hogs to sell every week made for a lot of savings on operating interest.

My assessment of spending protected retirement savings - qualified plans like 401ks and such - which are sheltered from bankruptcy, is correct financial observation. If you cannot make a payment for a secured loan, like a mortgage, the lender always has the recourse of taking back the asset. That is the deal. Throwing away your future support in a futile efforts to stay under a particular roof is simply stupid.

My advice would be to buy what you can afford on one income, or less, and live within those means. The whole mortgage fiasco was so rife with fraud - right to the level of the rating agencies like S&P - what is right and moral gets skewed.
I personally never made a debt I didn't fully intend to repay. So far, so good.
When banks took loan apps with no documentation, and the resulting mortgages got bundled and re-sold around the globe, rules got bent along the way. I would not suggest to anyone with the ability to repay a loan that they skip.
For people who think of their retirement plans as a savings account/ emergency savings plan, they are sadly mistaken. If the house
Is a goner, let it go. Save yourself and your retirement money. The bank has it's house to sell to another sucker. That is what it agreed to take, if you truly cannot pay.
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Senior Advisor

Re: I don't get that GDP/debt ratio.

Government is borrowing money to pay its obligations. You assume the spending is all unecessary when governmt does indeed have contractual obligations with suppliers and their citizens.

 

Our debt is primary the spending in wars and preparing for wars and refusing to pay for it. Plus billions of dollars in tax cuts and tax incentives we could not afford. What is the main target of republicans? social programs such as medicare medicaid and SS which hapeens to be programs the citizens were specifically taxed for. You don't see government borrowing money from the defense department. Nope they are borrowing from SS some 2.6 trillion.

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Senior Advisor

Re: I don't get that GDP/debt ratio.

You are indeed a hired hand for a pork producer with the only difference being that you bought the job instead of them hiring you. Which indeed is an honoralble profession just not one and independent farmer would choose.

 

You confirm that you would stick the bank or mortgage company before you would exhaust your ability to make payment. That is not an honorable position to take and advising others to reneg on financial obligations is not either.

 

If you have money in a retirement account. You do have the ability to repay even though the retirement acount is not secured collateral. Its a choice of being honorable or not.

 

 

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