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Honored Advisor

Re: new epa rule ???

I wish could have stayed a small, independent hog farmer, too. I guess it's is like the BTOs being tens of thousands of acres now in crop farming.

 

If you can explain to me how the entire system got whacked, and turn back the hands of time, I would gladly go. 

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Senior Advisor

Re: new epa rule ???

Quote :   Farm groups, including the American Farm Bureau Federation, contend the EPA regulations such as the Waters of the U.S. rule lead to higher costs for producers, with some growers unable to swallow the added expenses. They argue the stringent regulations are creating a ripple effect that is damaging the long-term health of the agricultural industry 

 

Well I hate to say this - But welcome to the New World -  This has been discussed on here before - Just go back and look at the Chesapeake Bay and what Maryland Farmers have to go thru ! They have to submit a plan - yes a fert. management plan to the U. of Maryland and get it approved  for them to use - and they can not go over the plan with ferts !

 

What you guys out there need to do is have your state come up with some kind of state plan that makes the EPA happy and still works with you guys !

 

But lets look at the facts here - your days of fall applied or early spring applied N are - or may be limited = Done  What about appling manure on frozen ground or any ground -  maybe to dry - to wet  ? = Done -- A lot of this can be controled with alittle help from farmers and the state , trust me , its better that you guys grab the bull by the horn - If you let the EPA do it - they will take the whole Cow !

 

You guys and gals need to start on some kind of deal - today - not tomorrow or all we will be hearing from you in years to come is about how you can't do this or can't do that !  And it won't be pretty  Smiley Wink

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Senior Advisor

Re: new epa rule ???

Being a farmer and a commerical applicator - I must also have a cat. 14 license to go with my Cat 1 licecence - Cat one is for pesticides and the 14 is for nutrient management - Indiana put manure as a nutrient = so then that gos along with fert. = nutrient - the main reason I fall into this catagory is 28 or 32 % - The Cat 14 is not only for the commerical guys - Farmers take the same test as I did .

 

Heres alittle from the Indiana State Chemist Office .

 

Becoming a Certified & Licensed Fertilizer Applicator

 



Individuals seeking fertilizer certification must pass a written category 14 exam covering fertilizer application planning, storage, application equipment maintenance, transportation, application techniques, and environmental concerns.

Certification candidates may attempt the Category 14 exam up to three times in a twelve-month period. Once the exam is passed, the certification is valid for five years, expiring on December 31 of the fourth year following the year of qualification.

View details on scheduling an exam


Certification may be renewed for another five years by repeating the examination process or accumulating at least three (3) category 14 continuing certification hours (CCHs) by attending approved recertification training programs.

View details on continuing certification programs


Once certified, a commercial Category 14 fertilizer applicator must become licensed in order to legally use (apply, handle, transport) or supervise the use of commercial fertilizers or manure from a CFO (Confined Feeding Operation) for hire. Licensing refers to the issuance of a wallet-size license (credential). Licenses expire and are renewable annually on December 31.

View the license application form  (pdf, 24kb

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Honored Advisor

Re: new epa rule ???

States can accept "Primary Enforcement Responsibility" under the Clean Water Act.  NC has done this and far exceeds federal requirements...we have the toughest swine CAFO regs in the nation, as assessed by university studies on the subject. 

 

It is hard for me to read some of the posts I see, and realize how far teh rest of teh nation is behind us in regulatory oversight.  The sad truth is, and I haev seen this firsthand, the smaller, older prodcers are the first to go. 

 

Compliance is too complex for some, the downside risk of fines for missteps runs away others.  Regulation is a double-edged sword...tool/weapon.

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Senior Advisor

Re: new epa rule ???

Kay I tend to agree with you 100 % on your above post , I have read and see on TV about your state - But there was a reason - I believe and if I 'm wrong - you will set me straight Smiley Happy  But didn't it have to do with the tight clay soils ? The manure would run off other than go down in to the soil ? Then you guys do have more hills there than here = runoff ? You had no options but to control your selfs OR have the Gov. come in and do it ? Right or wrong ?

 

Not to repeat myself - But after going to a class 2 years ago and heard the speaker from Maryland talk - that was enough to put the fear of God into anybody = Get your act togather , so to speak .

 

Indiana had to take the lead here - because of Ohio and them Killing a BIG lake on the Indiana - Ohio bouder = from Chicken Manure -

 

Also when I went to the half day class for Cat 14 and the test - There were farmers along with the commericals - The farmers where scared to death of the class and the test - One guy I talked to on break brought everybody that worked for him - I think it was 6 people - I told that it was probably good to get everybody there license - He laughed and said the reason was - he hoped that aleast one could pass the test and they would be good to go .

 

The rules and Regs will not get any better - And as far as Me - it really didn't cost me any more money - but maybe just some time = No big deal -

 

Heres the the big problem - Kay - We --- You and me --- are use to this stuff - them ole boys in Iowa just don't like change -- Smiley Wink Smiley Happy

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Senior Advisor

Re: new epa rule ???

What is interesting being we have regs of NO top application of liquid manure - although last week guess what was happening and now we had a 2.5 inch rain event and why do you supoze the stuff ends up in the water shed ?

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Honored Advisor

Re: new epa rule ???

Just so you will understand, regulatory oversight is mostly a complaint -driven system. The inspectors may catch things at some farms on their routine visits, but most violations of almost every code of regulations are caught by the people who present every day, not just one day a year.

Example, our zoning enforcement giy gets complaints from neighbors, about a shed set to close to their property line, or a sheriff gets a phone call complaing about a too - noist party. The zoning guy woukd never have seen that shed, because shrubbery obscures the site, unless the person next door called to complain. The sheriff didn't hear the neighbors playing earsplitting music at our house at three on Easter morning. It was almost loud enough to be heard five miles away at his office, but ther's a busy interstate in between, so we had to ask for a deputy to restore our peace.

My point is that when you see and can prove such regulatory noncompliance, it is your job as a concerned citizen to make the telephone call. That said, if I called the sheriff every weekend, even with no party next door, the response when .i really need help might be along the lines of " the boy who cried "WOLF!"'. Each agency has its crank caller list, too

If you document events and no regulatory action ensues, then you need to direct your complaints higher up the ladder. This is why EPA has come down on some states, trying to wrestle primary enforcement responsibility away.
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Senior Advisor

Re: new epa rule ???

Today, I had to again remind the grandkids not to get drinking water from the tap --- 

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Contributor

Re: new epa rule ???

In general, there are three criteria that define a wetland - length of soil saturation so that anaerobic (reducing) conditions are established, evidence of hydrology that would support a wetland, and a predominance of water-loving plant species. 

I am not aware of the proposed changes, but then I'm not a regulator.

 

It sounds more like it is stream related rather then wetlands from the information you supply.  eg, ephemeral vs intermittant, etc.  What you indicate in your post would violate the scientific principle that guides the defination above.  Remember, it takes time for the microbes to do  their stuff and so the reducing soil criteria is not met.  A change to the underlying science and of that magnitude, I'm pretty sure I would have heard about.   So, I think it's probably stream related.  

 

Changes to a stream definition would affect farmers (since it relates to isolation distances to streams and field management decisions), and it  would affect pipeline and other utility permits.  Land planning would also be affected.  But, you should call the Conservation District or the Army Corp in your district and inquire more.  There may be good reason for them to better define or redefine streams. 

 

Let me know the outcome.

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Contributor

Re: new epa rule ???

In general, that puddle would have to be connected to a higher level stream while meeting the three scientific measures that define wetlands. That involves soils, hydrology and plants for the EPA to be able to regulate it.  

 

If it is an isolated puddle, it is not jurisdictional.  It may be at the state level, but thats another story.

 

I suspect this has more to do with stormwater or stream regs rather than wetland regs.  A 24 hour flow period makes no sense as it relates to wetlands as I understand it.  And, I don't think the EPA or the USDA is that funky as to throw out basic scientific definations.

 

 

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