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Senior Advisor

Re: Very concerned

guess i need to explain my solar power comment.


at current time, i can order panels that are 60 cents per watt, so the cost per kilowatt is $600....and yes there are some other things you

will need to connect to the house or to be able to net meter.


but...if you would consider...using a formula, which might be slightly more kinder than maybe that of the real world, but say we

have usuable sunshine 360 days a year, and sunshine 6 hours per day, that would produce 2160 kilowatts a year


so in 1 year cost would be .2777 per kilowatt

         2 years cost would be .1388 per kilowatt

         3 years cost would be  .0925 per kilowatt


         7 years cost would be .0396 per kilowatt


in our part of the world, they only allow "net metering", and the power you sell back is at "wholesale cost", which is around 5 to 6 cents.

I cited the 7 year, which a old rule of thumb, if it pays for itself in 7 years, it's a good investment..i think in this case, it would qualify,

since after year 3, you would have power at below cost to you, and it would be close to be "paid off" by 7 years, due to cost

savings.....imagine "no" power bill.


But....there are a couple of things tho, i will admit, there are hail storms, which can be insured'll need things such as

inverters, etc, and if you want to go the route of battery's...newer way, but in my opinion, a bit more filled with danger, is that

you are creating hydrogen from water with the power generated, and when no sunlight, a generator would kick on, and use the

gas generated..but hydrogen is rather fickle to work with.

lets also not forget the "bloom box"...

untill we get things figured out, we will still need a connection to a power company, when things just are not perfect.


On the wind side, there is a unit that i'm looking me, there is plenty of wind around el cheapo' place to power a

wind turbine, either natural, or man made.........again, after several years, the cost of power is lower, but again true, there

is maintance, and other things you need to buy.


lastly, i'll have to mention geothermal heating/cooling.  i know of several in the area that has it, and their heating/cooling bill runs

$50 to $60 a month....true, you'll need to still have propane and power, these units kind of "smooth out" the usage.

there are now DYI kits available for about $8,000, plus some plastic pipe and some exchange fluid.  usually you put the

loops down 6 feet or more........90 percent of the time is ok....but....if you have times of prolonged heat or cold, where the heat

or cold goes down further, it can be a problem, that is why using a water well is a bit more popular, but additional cost

of drilling a well.




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Senior Contributor

Re: Very concerned

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Senior Advisor

Re: Very concerned

well sw is basicly correct on about hiring everything boils down to cost, in many instances is it cheaper........

today in industry, big and small, you have to factor in wages (which are higher in the u.s. than overseas in the developing countries)

then we need insurance, benefits, etc....etc...then we have to provide the equipment, and etc.....all of these cost........

also in the business and management world the big thing is to "hire" it done, to save capital from having to establish a place

to make or build things, plus labor costs, building maintance cost, etc.....

example, alot of the call centers, seem to be in india.......with the advent of the internet, we can do calls over there easy.

imagine the cost that Dell computer has keeping a system up in india, or in the usa......wages lower, cost of building lower

and an eager workforce...


here, higher wages, had to find help, then you would have higher operations cost due to higher building and energy costs.


same with manufacturing......from ritz john deere tractors.......lower labor areas.


then true, we could ship in corn from thousands of miles away, cheaper than rail here in the u.s.  far lower cost of production

in the other countries, but the shipment bill might be pretty good sized. do you change things around ???

i think john deere equipment is high enough the way it is, and we are using cheaper labor in mexico.....would you be willing to pay 30 to

40% more ?

if we moved the call centers to the usa........would you be able to stand a 30% increase in cost of items >


granted, in theory, it would be good, more people working, more taxes comming in, more money in the economy rather than

exported........the imported corn.....those buying, would they be willing to "buy american"......


overall maybe good idea.........but how to get it all back, and who's going to pay for it.........


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BA Deere
Honored Advisor

Re: Very concerned

ElCheapo, regardless of what happens the consumer and or taxpayer "pays for it".  So, instead of a euphoric global world in which we create jobs in other countries, why don`t we create jobs HERE?  after 25-35 years of free trade, NAFTA, CAFTA, GATT, WTO...guess what?  Our annual trade IMBALANCE is $700 billion and your wheat is still below your cost of production.  But hey, the Wall Street traders and money money money people never had it better.  The money money money people don`t know what to do with all their money and the people will calloused hands have lost or are losing their living wage jobs all because there are people a half a world away that are so desperate they will work for 1/10th of the US wages.  I say don`t enable this corporate global explotation, pass laws and tariffs to at least have American workers gainfully employed...we`re paying for it one way or another no matter what happens.

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Esteemed Advisor

Re: Very concerned

SW  - Good  points  and  a couple  of  them  I  have  had  experience  with ---


My experience  of   Mennonites constructing pivots came  2 decades ago around Lubbock Tx unloading a Zimmatic and witnessing this . The dealer said they contracted to erect like 20 new installs cheaper than the  '' other '' crews  south  of the border - like 1/2 price . end game  Exported $$$$  ---


 Immigrant Truck drivers working on the cheap has some interesting 2ndary results - several which have endless lists of ; expired insurance ; no CDL ; no IFTA ;no ''verified '' business home address ; abandoned trailers , equipment , loads ; scamed load account recievales ; no work comp ;  DO  you  want  me  to  continue ?


Actions like these put a finacial firewall on reputable companies in several different ways and just being involved with one of the above can have a catastrofic consequences; I have associates that did and it wasn't a wholesome expierience ---


Also their health insurance provider being your local emergency room ---


A  REAL INTERESTING business environment to say the least ---    

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Honored Advisor

Re: Very concerned

A little something from south of the border.


This might be a good thing to import?

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Honored Advisor

Re: Very concerned

It is a serious delema,  and only a portion of it can be solved by personal attitude..... which I still think is a huge american road block.... because in a lot of cases, especially the ones where foreign nationals work in the US.... We are wrong,, price is not the issue..... they are not here because they work cheaper. That is just something we tell ourselves to mask the real issues like education and character.


What I did was search a list of political doners to see who perpetuates the circus we take our kids to every other year.  Looking that over and thinking about tax code (it is a condition for which I get treatment), I am thinking,  these are the entities that can afford to burn cash and watch it be blown into the publics left nostril.  How do they contribute to public debt or public tax revenues?  I find that a lot of them don't.

It is a terrible delema....

Our tax code is based on W-2 forms and the vast majority of the income in the US is now investment income or global corps profits.. like the 1.5 billion in profits facebook reports annually, but avoids US taxation....  We buy their stock while they live off us free and clear of most of their tax liability.  This is not just one company.... IT is a huge problem with international corps. Tech and banking are strong on those lists.

Then the huge gifts by companies who trade political donations for bloated government contracts.

Heavy on that list of political contributors is another group of tax dodgers who represent one of the worst exploitations of the US legal system,  the non-profit charities and foundations....Including PAC's through major universities in the US.. Churches and education institutions generating a lot of wealth without the tax burdon.  And of course the wealthy who all have a charitable foundation to launder wealth for a tax advantage.

Then there is the Money managers and financial institutions.......  

it is an interesting way to look at the "who lives off the public".


. Why do we waste time judging the personality of the elected or speculating on the big problems he might create how could they get bigger...... "that's entertainment" pure and simple.  Our watchdog press has become nothing but public entertainment.  It diverts us all from holding our elected officials accountable.


There are some very extreme basic problems that threaten our future as a country.  Our elected officials have been very busy the last 40 years spending and doodling out libraries of laws that basically dole out $$$ and expand authority.  But very little real leadership.


Our tax code is based on a working class society............. that was 50 years ago  times have changed   ------ fix it so these privilidged parasites pay taxes.  (please don't think that was an agreement with any politician saying "the rich don't pay........"--- I get so sick of hearing rich people say that while they enhance their wealth in public service).  Lip service... if they meant it they would be authoring legislation that would tax themselves..


Our immigration policy is antique and so slow it is impracticle for international business.   The idea that all it takes is a "place of birth" to qualify for citizenship is not practicle.  And the idea that it can never be revolked is just unrealistic...  A visa often needs the application to at least three different departments of the federal government......  and occasionally it looks easier to move the company to another country than to get foreign employees into a US office where they can get a W-2 and pay taxes.


I miss palouser and his thoughts about how inactive congress is..... I want them to stop the popularity contest, stop buying votes with tax dollars and actually govern.  Address real issues, update our function, prepare us for the digital world before we have crisis.  Wipe out overlapping regulation.  Show strength of knowledge in new technology.  Streamline government administrative costs and effeciencies.  Discontinue laws that have outlived their function.  Manage the thing instead of bleeding it to death with pinned on IOUs.


We are so smug, telling each other how stupid the voters are........ Maybe the voters see the picture much more clearly.  And maybe it is not so hard to see why our worker "taxpayers" struggle with attitude.


We really need to address our criteria for voter participation, citizenship, and the meaning of "conflict of interest"...

Can We Watch the proceedings in South Korea and not understand the vote here.  At least in the midwest where there is a little respect left.


The new administration will have a hard time changing anything............. nothing to fear from them.




Re: Very concerned

That was an enjoyable read.


Your passion when getting away from specific slights and complaints and addressing the universal condition was refreshing.


And, yeah, there is no fix in what WE have got coming.  Just a deep commitment to more regression.

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BA Deere
Honored Advisor

Re: Very concerned

A guy on Noory last night was talking about how with computerized trading...derivatives and such alot of funny business can be done with stocks and investing these days.  In the olden days, you went to a broker and paid 1/8th and bought and then everyday looked in the newspaper how your stock did.  Now with the high frequency trading and such, the system has been gamed for years, perhaps you`re right SW, that taxes should now better reflect these what I`d call "ill gotten gains", kind of level the playing field of this fish in a barrel shooting that`s been going on with the Lamborghini trophies. 

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Senior Contributor

Re: Very concerned

Nox, what made you fall in love with Hillary?
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