Fascism could occur here

[Palouser]

I have personally seen people who practice the art of convincing others that the danger is right outside the door, and we need to react or prepare to act in a violent way. Just be aware that there is ALWAYS a 'strawman' involved. That is, an argument with no basis in fact, other than what they say to be true. If you believe them then they control you. If you maintain your intellectual independence they have no power over you. You have to decide whether the evidence supports them or whether they are trying to push an interpretation of events in order to sign you up as a supporter. There is no question in my mind that at the moment our govenment institutions are strong and operating correctly - whether you agree with any particular policy or not. History has shown that our system of checks and balances is self correcting to a significant degree.

The question to ask an an ag economist is 'Do you believe the market is always right?'. They are usually catty enough to avoid answering directly, but if they happen to agree then they aren't worth your time. It is what the market IS that's important.

[kraft-t]

They certainly are using fascist tactics.  If they were at all  honest they wouldn't have to use lies and exaggeration.

The market is what it is. When I sell a bushel of grain to my coop, we have established a cash price at that point in time at that place. Buyer and seller coming together. What most people consider the "market" is the exchanges but I don't know what the heck they are trading. It isn't grain I can tell you that.  They are trading promises for the most part and it has nothing to do with establishing a grain price.

[timetippingpt]

I assume you guys are talking about the radical left in this country and

the massive taking of private property by government in the take overs

and baliouts. IF not...I'll admit that I have no idea who or what

you and Palouser are talking about.

[Palouser]

We live in parallel universes Ken. No use trying to understand. In your universe you are in a 'formerly free' country. I live in a free country with all its faults and advantages. We can't find common ground, no how, no way.

[jrsiajdranch]

Ken and Palouser, let me give out two basic definitions I know they are real simple these are mine rght now and maybe should be called working definitions.

Socialism is to big to fail, practicully applied it is goverment in an adulturess relationship with business.  In this relationship the business and goverment provide a host parasite symbiotic relationship. By the way each group thinks he other is the parasite.

Fascism is Goverment is now to big to fail.  Goverment know must be fed first and Gov erment must always set the rules irregardless of the natural order.

Ken I only asked the question of Palouser to try to understand where he was coming from with his statement. Not trying to get into a political argument over here. though I think going forward the politics will be intertwned very closely with the Market.

ANd I think we are all screwed! ANd so you know the screwin has turned into a reaming and the screwing started under Bush!  We are now into the reaming phase! I better go. 

And Paluoser I would say that freedom has been limted and if the dairy leaders actually get i some type of supply mgt. system I will no longer be free! So maybe freedoms where you look for it?  I would also say our checks and balances are not. JR

[timetippingpt]

I really do not understand what "facism" you are talking about.

OUR  ever expanding authoritarian centralized government that seems to meet the most common definitions.

[jrsiajdranch]

KEn who are you talking to? 

Palouser the strawman is the hypothetical i can find lots of guys who would say your convergance concerns are just the strawman also. 

I guess the real deal is that just Because you do or don't see a problem doesn't mean the concern is valid or invalid. JR

[jrsiajdranch]

Ken and palouser A question what would you call bio fuels credits fascism or socialism?  SO I will appear fair and balanced hows about MILC pmts. to dairyfarmers or direct pmts. to crop farmers? JR

[timetippingpt]

jr...I simply am trying to understand what Pal and his buddies

are calling Facism. By definition facism is an authoritarian

centralized government that makes "enlightened" and

 "wise" decisions on investments behavioral for its inhabitants.

Historically calling on a nationalistic/patriotic emotional appeal

to justify the taking of power and property. (Chavez in Ven for

example.) This has been turned on its head a little in the

US in form of globalism, ie we MUST do this for the globe. Or we

must accept illegals to be considered civilized. No one else

on the planet does, but we must if we want to be "global".

Or, we have to take over GM to stabilize the "global" economy.

Hogwash, there is alternative supplier of every single vehicle

GM makes. Now, of course, it is a gov car company with all

the trappings that will develop around it over time. We took

the property of the bond holders and gave it to the unions. I

think that meets the definition. Of course, all actions were

taken by a virtually bankrupt country (us) that cannot make its

principal payments on its sovereing debt.

SO, I thinki it fair to be told just who or what they are talking

about. Their silence is probably speaking volumes.

Back to your marketing question, what can be trusted?

Simply, nothing. You cannot trust the media, including Fox,

on anything. You can trust individuals, and maybe even a

few small companies, but in reality, it is unwise to put

trust in anything as emotionally driven as Supply or

Demand numbers, since only "expressed S&D" really

matters and that is pretty emotionally driven.  We know

that estimates of all these things change all the time. We

have more success when we understand the methodology

used to create the numbers and where the assumptions

might be wrong. But the short answer is in the internet

era, and when computers can trade millions of shares of

stock in a nano-second to scalp pennies and that is ok

with the exchanges, well, just be careful.

Look at the Dow for example. IT is a rigged index. They

take out the companies before they go broke and replace

with rapidly growing large companies. So, to expect it

to accurately reflect reality is not a good thing to trust.

The CPI  inflation number is quite bogus is a good example.

To your question about subsidies for ag, I testifed to

the Senate ag committee in 1996 that if they would

actually let FTF work we could easily be weaned off

subsidies. Of course, they did not let it work and doubled

payouts, LDP's etc. As you know, I think the ethanol

subsidy is terrible socialistic  public policy. Protein

 (meat) prices are increasing due to the higher cost

structure and will have to shift to a new higher level

over time. There is NO cheap food policy in America.

Cheap fuel policy for sure, but not food. So, I say

end the subsidies and let the chips fall where

they will. (some will fall on me as well)

OF course,  more acres lowers everyone's

overhead.

As to the dairy stuff, I have no clue. Based upon the

amount of money your industry has lost the last

3 years it would seem that the current system

isn't much better than subsidy penalized meat

production.

You might remember that  I have long felt that there

is no justification for government to subsidize the

wealthiest members of the community. Ag is a

big target that will get even bigger as the currency

declines in purchasing power over time.

Just my opinion.....everyone has one.

[dapper7]

i might as well throw my definition into the mix. facsim is the melding of government power and corporate power.the list for the fdic are all small and regional banks.(700 plus). who buys these small and regional banks when they(ahem) fail? someone farther up the food chain. hang with me here. when bank of america was tempted to buy merril lynch, and recoiled after reviewing the books of ml, the fed and treasury said the sale will proceed because BOA had received money from the two.( which came from us one way or another). my point of this rather disjointed post is that the remnants of the free market were working until the feds moved in. be it merrill , lehman, etc. these firms were being priced for the risks they had taken on. the semi free market was working. i also believe that certain firms were given the wink nod nod to predatise (is that a word) the weak sisters of the group. nothing happens by chance . things appear to be random, but they are not. things are going according to plan. excuse me now its time for my meds and they dont give much free time where they let me live.d7