new marketng approach?

[Hobbyfarmer]

Is e85 the Wave of the Future?

Ted Seifried of Zaner - IF - 2 hrs 11 mins ago

As most people know I am a big advocate of the American farmer and the Agricultural industry as a whole, so when I found out earlier this year that I could convert my non-flex fuel vehicle to a vehicle that could run both e85 and 93 octane fuel with some pretty awesome benefits I jumped at the opportunity.  I have to say, I love the outcome and for a few reasons.  But from a broader perspective I think my experience can offer some insights to the ethanol industry as a whole.

To begin with the vehicle in question is my baby.  It is a 2009 Cadillac CTS V that I am the proud second owner of.  For you car guys out there you know exactly why, but for the non-gear heads let me explain:  The second generation Cadillac CTS V is nothing short of a 4-door American supercar.  As part of the GM family Cadillac borrowed the most potent Corvette engine they could get their hands on and de-tuned it slightly.  That engine was the LSA which is the same supercharged 6.2 liter V8 found in the top Corvette ZR1 only with a slightly smaller supercharger.  When a Cadillac CTS V rolls off the assembly line it has 554 Hp and 551 Lbs of torque.

However, I am a gear head and when I see an opportunity to improve something I do. So I made some light modifications to boost output to 553 hp at the rear wheels. (Quick note - hp at the wheels is less then the stated hp manufactures claim due to loss of hp in the drive train).  And then the speed shop that I had been getting work done at informed me that they had just gotten in the e85 conversion kits and they were producing awesome results to the tune of 50-70 hp gains at the wheels!  So, your telling me I can burn corn and get more power?!?!  I'M IN!!!

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This was a bit of a complicated process that took e85 use far beyond that of a typical flex fuel car.  To get the maximum performance and best fuel mileage we had to install a sensor in the fuel tank to tell the car's computer what it was working with and in turn the car's computer would set the fuel/air mixture to the optimal level for the given fuel.  This means we had to tune the car to multiple settings for different fuel mixes.  We also had to replace all gaskets and upgrade the fuel pump.  All together it ended up being right about $2,000 for the conversion, which for the gear heads out there this is by far the cheapest hp you can get.

The end result was a 70 hp gain to 603 hp!  And I am so very pleased.  The mpg did suffer on e85, but it was not as bad as I had expected.  The CTS V is a gas sucker as is and with e85 it is more thirsty but not by a whole lot.  Before the conversion when I was running strictly 93 octane fuel I was getting an average of 11.6 mpg.  Now, when running e85 I get an average of 10.4.  This is a noticeable drop but not a tremendous drop.  At the time the savings of e85 vs 93 octane more then made up for it and I have to believe that this will be the case more often then not in the future as well.  Now, with the mpg drop e85 might not make financial sense compared to regular 87 octane fuel but for me regular fuel is not an option.

But, what is the point of me explaining this on a forum such as this one?  I assure you it is not just to talk about my car (however I do seem to do that a lot).  My point is that I believe there is a market out there that the ethanol industry either does not see or is not interested in.  I am not just talking about the gear heads either.

So far the ethanol industry has targeted the average consumer with little success.  This is mostly because the average consumer is driven by value and e85 compared to regular fuel does not offer much better value most of the time when considering the drop in mpg.  However, these flex fuel cars normally run regular 87 octane fuel and the value proposition for e85 is much stronger when compared 93 octane premium fuel. Further more the average flex fuel car does not change the fuel/air mixture depending on the fuel it is given and burns e85 like it is 83 octane gasoline.  This means that mpg suffers more then it should and the potential increase in performance is never realized.

This strongly suggests that e85 might not be for the average consumer and its in not a competitor to regular gasoline.  So, who should the target consumer be?  The premium segment who buy premium cars that take premium gas.  People who buy premium cars that take premium gas do so for performance and luxury.  Give them the opportunity for more performance at cheaper or comparable prices and e85 makes a case that is very difficult to argue with.  Plus, the expense to produce a car that is properly tuned and has a sensor in the gas tank would be much more easily absorbed by the premium car market.  It also means that we could be getting more power out of smaller and more efficient engines which is certainly the trend in the auto industry right now.  And, who knows,  The features that start in the premium car market often have a way of trickling down to the average car market as consumers want to reach up.  This could be the doorway to e85 being massively popular on a much bigger scale.  So, if the ethanol industry is serious about expanding it's customer base despite lower gas prices this is may be road map.

The bottom line is that e85 is a premium fuel and should be treated as such.  At approximately 103 octane it offers the best performance for cars that are tuned to use it and a solid value proposition compared to premium 93 octane gasoline.  All sports cars worth their salt should be able to use e85 to it's potential as should luxury cars that use premium fuel.  E85 should be the wave of the future if the ethanol industry can understand it's product and market it for what it is.

[Palouser]

It's the auto industry not the ehtanol industry making choices about segmenting the market using different products. Gearheads are gearheads but they don't represent much market. A car that gets 10-12 mpg? I don't care how hot the car is, there isn't much of a market. Fiddling around w/ my Cummins Ram I've gotten up to 27 mpg on the Hwy and I still have about 600 lbs of torque at my disposal.

OK, we've got a fuel market that going to be cheaper. I'll guess when it heads back up it won't take long getting there. Better hope Detroit will start really souping up the 1.4 -2.5 litre engines they're going to put in 'every man's' driveway. Actually they are.

By the way, in the West I think I've seen one E-85 pump in my life.

[Wind]

For ethanol vehicles to out perform gasoline vehicles they need engines built to burn ethanol, not gasoline engines retrofitted to burn ethanol.  And it can be done.  http://www.e100ethanolgroup.com/E100_Engines_and_Vision.html

Yes, I think E-85 or E-100 should be the wave of the future.

A Volt with an engine built to run on E-85?  Now that would get me  looking.

Plenty of E-85 pumps around here.

[hardnox]

Theoretically the low displacement/high compression engines that they're using to meet fleet standards should do well on higher ethanol blends, or at least could be chipped to do so.

I've asked many people here and elsewhere if they've had any experience either with 85 or various blends but never gotten much response.

[Hobbyfarmer]

I have a flex fuel SUV
Runs fine on it
Was advised to not use the high blends in this kind of cold weather.
Haven't tried it, was told it would be a starting issue with a cold engine.

MPG is 15%+ less on e85 that is probably 70% e.

[nwobcw]

I have two refineries within 10 miles of me and I've never seen an e85 pump

[Shaggy98]

A car that only gets 10-12 MPG might not have much of a market? Maybe not, but they're a hell of a lot of fun.

[nwobcw]

And they use 2 or 3 car's worth of gas.

[sw363535]

I have a 4wheeler that gets less than that with a little 400cc motor.

It is fun as long as the wheels are down.

[Palouser]

The new Volt gets an engine replacement that doesn't require premium. Don't know why it couldn't be flex fuel but I don't know if it will be. Volt engineers don't like after market innovation. They dropped a $billion into this project and have done an amazing amount of complex engineering that works unbelievably well - but they are inherently conservative because they don't want an iota of bad press. Because of that the service is other worldly. Lifetime advisor assignment (mine is Brandon), constant checking over the simplist thing (only one very minor issue in 20k miles), and then they start giving you stuff!

Mine is 100 mpg lifetime average so what's to worry about?