MY REPSONSES ARE IN CAPS BELOW...NOT YELLING JUST DIFFERENTIATING...MY POST DID NOT ADDRESS WHETHER WOMEN WRESTING ON MENS TEAMS, IN MY OPINION, WAS GOOD OR BAD. I SIMPLY WAS ADDRESSING THE YOUNG MANS RIGHTS AND HOW I FELT THEY HAD BEEN VIOLATED TO ACCOMODATE HER RIGHTS.
I do not "lack respect' for this young man. Many of us make very costly sacrifices for our beliefs and values in life, so perhaps this is a good growth experience. Giving up a shot at a title is a small price to pay for a deeply-held value.
Here are some "devil's advocate" questions for this situation:
Is there then some implication that we ought not to respect a young man who does wrestle against a female? NO I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MY POST IMPLIES THAT. NOR DO I BELIEVE WE SHOULD NOT RESPECT HIS CHOICE. QUITE THE CONTRARY...BUT I BELIEVE WE SHOULD RESPECT THE CHOICE NOT TO WITHOUT SEEKING ULTERIOR MOTIVES AND MAKING THE CASE THAT HER RIGHTS SHOULD SUPERSEDE HIS.
She has obviously gone up against more than a few to get this far in her scholastic career. Would you say that any or all of those boys were lacking in good values? NO. AGAIN, THAT CHOICE SHOULD BE THEIR'S.
Should the schools be forced to offer an equal wrestling program for females, or none at all? YES, IF THERE IS EMERGING INTEREST AND THERE SUFFICIENT NUMBER OF WOMEN INTERESTED IN THE PROGRAM TO CAUSE TITLE NINE TO KICK IN
In most cases, there is a men's team and a women's team in the same or a similar sport in the same season, except for football. As long as that is the case, I can see no cause for kids to cross the gender line...but what do you do when there is no comparable program for a gifted kid of either gender?
WHEN THERE IS NO SUCH COMPARABLE PROGRAM FOR A GIFTED KID THEN I WOULD ARGUE THAT IT IS THE PARENT'S REPONSIBILITY TO FIND AN OUTLET TO DEVELOP THEIR CHILDS TALENT. IF MY KIDS SCHOOL DOES NOT OFFER BAND AS AN EXTRACURRICULAR AND MY KID IS A BUDDING MOZART, SHOULD THE TAXPAYERS HAVE TO FOOT THE BILL TO ACCOMODATE MY KID? NO.
UNLESS THERE IS SUFFICIENT INTEREST BY A NUMBER OF FEMALES, THEN THE SCHOOL SHOULD NOT HAVE TO CREATE A WOMENS PROGRAM FOR JUST ONE TALENTED GIRL WHO HAPPENS TO BE INTERESTED. LET HER PARENTS FIND A PLACE WHERE HER TALENT CAN BE DEVELOPED. NOW IF 20 GIRLS WANT TO WRESTLE, AND THE BOYS TEAM HAS 20 MEMBERS THEN THEY HAVE AN OBIGIATION TO FIELD A TEAM. AGAIN, MY OPINION ONLY APPLIES TO A COMBAT TYPE SPORT LIKE WRESTLING OR FOOTBALL. CERTAINLY TENNIS AND SWIMMING AND TRACK CAN EASILY ACCOMODATE WOMEN ON A MENS FIELD.
REGARDING 'EMERGING SPORT' FOR WOMEN...THERE NEEDS TO BE SUFFICIENT INTEREST ON THE PART OF WOMEN TO MOVE THE NCAA OR THE US OLYMPIC COMMITTEE TO CREATE A PROGRAM FOR WOMEN IN THAT SPORT....HIGH SCHOOLS, ALREADY STRAPPED FOR RESOURCES, CANNOT BE EXPECTED TO CREATE A PROGRAM WHERE ONLY ONE WOMAN SHOWS INTEREST IN COMPETING COMPARED TO 30 MEN. IT IS NOT FEASIBLE. THAT IS WHY SO FEW COLLEGES OFFER WOMENS WRESTLING...GOOGLE A RECENT NY TIMES ARTICLE FOR A GOOD OVERVIEW OF THIS ISSUE.
THERE IS A PUSH NOW TO HAVE WOMENS WRESTLING RECOGNIZED AS AN EMERGING SPORT....SMALL COLLEGES THAT ARE OFFERING IT ARE SEEING DROVES OF WOMEN COMING TO THEIR SCHOOLS FOR THE CHANCE TO COMPETE AS THAT IS WHERE THEY WILL HONE THIER SKILLS TO COMPETE AT THE OLYMPIC LEVEL....OLYMPICS STARTED WOMENS WRESTLING IN 2004....BUT, EVEN AT THE NCAA LEVEL THERE IS RESISTANCE TO ALLOWING WOMEN TO COMPETE ON MENS TEAMS AND IT IS NOT ALLOWED IN THE OLYMPICS....WHY SHOULD WE BE SO STUPID AS TO ALLOW IT AT THE HIGHSCHOOL LEVEL IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THE EXPERTISE TO RECOGNIZE AND ADDRESS PHYSICAL INJURIES IS SO MUCH LOWER THAN AT THE NCAA OR OLYMPIC LEVEL??
Just for the sake of discussion...not arguing any point, just asking
I AM NOT AGAINST THE SPORT OF WRESTLING FOR WOMEN....NOT BY ANY MEANS....BUT I AM AGAINST WOMEN WRESTLING AGAINST MEN....I DONT BELIEVE THAT EITHER ATHLETE BENEFITS FROM THAT SITUATION. IF ENOUGH WOMEN WANT TO WRESTLE, THEN TITLE NINE WILL MANDATE THAT THE HIGHSCHOOLS ACCOMODATE THEM...
ON A CLOSING NOTE I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT THE LAW REQUIRES EDUCATIONAL, SOCIAL SERVICES AND MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS TO INQUIRE ABOUT PHYSICAL INJURIES TO A PERSON (MOST ALWAYS A WOMAN OR CHILD) TO COVER THEIR BUTTS IN THE CASE OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE...BUT WE QUESTION A MAN'S MOTIVES WHEN HE CHOOSES NOT TO PARTICIPATE IN AN EVENT THAT HE PRETTY MUCH KNOWS WILL INFLICT PHYSICAL INJURY ON A WOMAN....HOW WHACKED IS THAT???
JUST DISCUSSING NOT ARGUING....
People do not get charged criminally with abuse for athletic injuries, as long as their conduct stays within the bounds of the sport. The same is true of assault and battery regardless of sex of the offender. That is really off-the mark to me, as an argument. Yes, if a guy grabbed a girl (or vice versa) and caused an injury off-mat. then it might be actionable.
How is it any different to say that a guy is being disenfranchised in this case, because he is the one among all her opponents who objects to her gender, but there need to be a whole gaggle of girls to warrant a program for them? I cannot reconcile elevating one person for practicing their values, and tell another kid who simply wants the same things in lfie that she is wrong.
Sure, there is likely to be less and les money for sports...but that does not mean that what there is left has to be spent on either gender disproportionately. I had not researched olympic wrestling or even collegiate wrestling for women or men...but the bottom line here - and there always is one - is money.
If males have opportunity to gain scholarship support for a sport in college, then females deserve equal opportunity. Period. If my daughter is a really good grappler, and she wants to compete with whoever is available to her in order to gain her college education by her own efforts, then who is to say she should not have that chance? Either both get that chance, or neither one does.
Knowing now that there is an olympic magnet drawing women towards this type of competition, and that college programs are coming along, it is reasonable to expect gifted young females to require a predecessor to that level to develop their skills and reputation. College scouts cannot recruit you if you do not get to play in high school.
I do not think her rights HAVE superceded his...I think she simply asked for equal treatment under the law. That is the American way to me. What makes it the "men's" wrestling program anyway...tradition, and that alone. A sport is usually only defined with gender if there are equal programs offered, in which case we have "men's tennis/women's tennis, men's soccer/women's soccer, etc."
Why is it the parent's responsibility to find a program for a female and not for a male in the same school system? Just because she's a girl? If music is not offered, it is not offered to anyone...not based on anatomy. That does not compute to me as a corollary. We all seek out things to addres our children's gifts and passions...and not all of them can possibly be addressed by the public schools: still if we do admit one set of kids to try out for a given activity, we have to provide for them all.
Accepting the concept of a "combat" sport is sort of dfficult for me...and I played (girls') basketball for blood, I guess you could say. There is not supposed to be anything near that level of warfare on any organized playing field or court, and the point that the training and supervision of people coaching at high school levels is largely why...some are simply interested volunteers with NO special training in many places. The younger the kids, the more likely the adults involved are even LESS prepared.
Part of the problem with especially scholastic sports today is that they have been allowed to deteriorate to that level - where the goal is to hurt the other team, or at least the best players on it - instead of beating them in a game played fairly. Unless or until we address this, I wonder really if anyone's sons or daughters ought to be allowed to play at all.
Both Northrup and Herkelmann are now done from what I understand. they both had chances to wrestle back. I feel that young men should not be even given a chance to get agressive with women. Women shoudn't be taught be be agressive with men. I do believe a woman should be able to defend herself in certain situations. I also agree if boys can't be in girls sports, then girls shouldn't be in boys sports. What would happen is a girl is physically injured by a boy in one of these contact sports, then someone would scream that the boy got too agressive with her. Darned if ya do and darned if ya don't. The young man from our school that won his first match, lost his next two. We feel he is a very good wrestler for our school, but I guess the caliber of wrestlers really gets high when you get to the rounds he did. he didn't get pinned in any of them, and the mom says that the ref was raising his hand she thought to call it a pin (our wrestler almost pinned the other guy) when the buzzer went off. so a couple seconds too late. Wrestling is a tough sport.
Cassy lost her second match today, against a really tough opponent. Nobody from her camp has spoken to the media at all until now. They wanted to wait until she was finished competing, and her parents tried their best to shield her from the news and everything going on around her. Here's a pic her mom shared from the press conference given by Cassy, her dad, and her coach. They're back there somewhere!!
None of us have addressed the media circus aspect of this situation...which is WAY too obvious here. Very often, an isolated incident gets elevated to some sort of cult event...which seems to be at least part of what has happened here.
Lisa, you alluded to her losing her second match." That and someone else's comment about teh boy who forfeited to her "wrestling back" sound sort of along the lines of a double-elimination tournament structure...that is, it takes two losses to be totally eliminated. If that is indeed the case, then the kid who refused to fight her just gave up one of the two losses, which is not nearly the same as giving up your only chance to compete.
In that respect, it would to me be more like a pitcher giving up a walk to get past a really feared batter...sort of a strategic move, if you will. Teh girl got a bye in that round. Not nearly as big a deal, in the overall analysis of the event.
Can you clarify if the boy was eliminated by his forfeit to Cassey, or if he had a second chance?
That's right, Kay ... it's a double-elimination tournament. The boy who forfeited to her yesterday had a chance to wrestle again. I don't know whether he won or not, but by giving up that first match, the best he could possibly do is come in third.
I have to say the thing that has impressed me the most about this whole thing is the sportsmanship shown on all sides, at least by the wrestlers, the coaches, and the parents. The world has sort of taken hold of this and made it into a big controversy, but the boy who forfeited was very respectful in doing so, and Cassy's dad said he was proud of the boy for sticking to his beliefs no matter the cost, and said he'd like to shake the boy's hand.
Michelle, Cassy's mom, posted a link to this article and said, "Finally, an article that tells how we really are and what this is really about ... she's a wrestler!"
As you probably know, he was scheduled to wrestle her during the season and chose not to, then, as well. So the current forrfeit is not a sudden choice on his part. His position appears to be consistent. In that first case, rules permitted the school to substitute another wrestler for him. In the state tournament, he did not have that choice.
I would think that the substitution rule has to do with the regular matches being team competitions...each match adds up towards an overall composite score in wrestling, doesn't it?
I am not as impressed with the rationale for refusing to wrestle her...I just see it as boycotting women competitors. Most boycotts I've witnessed are usually justified with some ideal or value too, but it boils down to refusing to involve the boycotted party until they give in or give up. To me, anyone who has tried out, trained and competed and qualified for a state tournament has earned his or her spot.
Thank you for teh link, Lisa. As I've said here...this kid just wanted to be treated equally, and she earned her place in the state tournament.
I am old enough to remember many, many "female firsts." I am hoping that I will live long enough to see that this is no longer necessary to note. .
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